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Dr. 914
I was lamenting of the lack of original parts for our concours restorations, thinking that maybe never in the future would I be able to restore a 914 to its exact factory look and feel.
My question here is if there were two identical concours entries, and say, one had aftermarket carpeting and the other factory carpeting, should the guy with the aftermarketing carpeting be pecked because of it? We all know that factory carpeting has long been discontinued, and although there are many aftermarket carpet kits that look acceptable, there is no substitute for the factory. If the answer is yes the guy with aftermarket should be pecked, then would that not spoil the spirit of the competition and discourage people from entering?
Tom_T
I agree, as well as for period correct original parts offered by the dealers back in the day!
... but then I'm not one of the vaunted PCA CW Gurus making the rules! cool_shades.gif

On a similar note, when I talked with the PCA's CdE chair last year abut the total lack of any OE correct 165HR15 Tubeless tires for my 73 2L, he said that 195/65HR15s as recco'd by the factory or any other 156R15 would be acceptable - so go figure!!?? confused24.gif
Pat Garvey
Let's suppose the following scenario:

Car #1: nicely done restoration, with original carpets that show some slight wear, but no dirt (believe me, it can be done).
Car #2: nicely done resto, but with high grade aftermarket carpets.

First, I don't think that most PCA (or other) judges would be able to detect the difference between the carpeting, because there are a couple of companies out there who have become really good at retro-fitting 914 carpet(as well as early 911 carpet). From the samples that I've seen, they're really good. I also think that so many years have gone down that many exceptional judges would be able to remember the piles of the original.

So I find this a conundrum. In my scenario, both cars have been restored. One with original carpets showing minor wear, another with excellent resto carpets that mimic original.

Now, in typical judging time limits, I would have 5 to7 minutes to decide this situation, as well as many other interior issues, so my response would be to gig the one with original carpeting. These are restored cars, so they should be restored by any means. And parts are out there to do this.

I make these comments based on the PCR's. I don't like them, but those are the rules.

"original", in PCR terms means that (as I recall) 90% of the car has to have its original finish. The interior must be original, as well as all lights, etc. So, if the car has been in an accident sometime in its 35-40 year existence, you're probably considered "restored". However, the panels repainted include the underside of the lids, engine bay, F&R trunks & belly, so there is so wiggly room for the term "restored".

Now, if I were looking at Georges scenario, I'd suggest the Preservation class for PCA events. Then, on the day of judging, I'd look very closely at the carpets of my best competitor while it was being judged (never touch the competetor's car). If I had ANY thoughts that the car wasn't carrying "original" carpeting I'd make a note of it & wait for final judging results. Then, if I were certain that the carpet was aftermarket and that I were less than 1 point away from beating the other car, I'd file a protest. Then, await the results. Protests are cheap if you feel you're in the right.
Tom_T
Interesting scenario Pat, particularly for me trying to resto a 73 with the NLA #503 Dark Tan carpet (tan & brown speckled) that the aftermarket pile carpets don't match, as with my NLA #31 Beige interior with #501/502 Basketweave/Smooth Leathertte upholstery - restore/repair & rejuvenate, or pull it all out & redo with an as close as possible match of aftermarket stuff - lighter tan on upholstery, differing basketweave & darker carpet (I even have the samples from World Upholstery).

A conundrum to say the least, but I'm still leaning more towards fixing up with OEM materials as much as possible & give it a go!

Steve's comment to me when I visited him last Fall that he got gigged at Parade for insufficient wear on a car of the age (or something like that) still rings in my ears - but Sahara Beige is preservation, while mine will definitely be preservation.

Still, I'd like to keep as much of the old gal as I can.

BTW - I like the period pic of Fritz in your Avatar! smilie_pokal.gif
Pat Garvey
Click to view attachment[attachment=15056
9:89Parade01.jpg][attachme
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QUOTE (Tom_T @ Apr 7 2011, 01:22 AM) *
Interesting scenario Pat, particularly for me trying to resto a 73 with the NLA #503 Dark Tan carpet (tan & brown speckled) that the aftermarket pile carpets don't match, as with my NLA #31 Beige interior with #501/502 Basketweave/Smooth Leathertte upholstery - restore/repair & rejuvenate, or pull it all out & redo with an as close as possible match of aftermarket stuff - lighter tan on upholstery, differing basketweave & darker carpet (I even have the samples from World Upholstery).

A conundrum to say the least, but I'm still leaning more towards fixing up with OEM materials as much as possible & give it a go!

Steve's comment to me when I visited him last Fall that he got gigged at Parade for insufficient wear on a car of the age (or something like that) still rings in my ears - but Sahara Beige is preservation, while mine will definitely be preservation.

Still, I'd like to keep as much of the old gal as I can.

BTW - I like the period pic of Fritz in your Avatar! smilie_pokal.gif


Tom,
That is a "cartoonerized" pic of the attached.

It was the '89 Parade in Michigan. I scored higher than ever before but was killed by my choice of wheels & tires (which I left on to autocross - bad decision!). I also had one judge, a supposed 914 expert, question me on having chromed inside door handle covers on a '72. Wouldn't believe me, and I almost protested but that was bad form. Interior judge gigged me for having new carpets, though he believed they were Porsche correct - another thought about protesting. In the end, I lost by 1.5 points, and it was mostly because of the tire/wheel combination. I would mention that the guy who beat me, Cole Scrogham, had an original 914 that had rust stains in the trunk. However, my master vylinder crapped out on prep day and he lent me a new one. He would probably never do that today - he's moved on to concouring brand new cars (what!?) for some time now, and wins!

My beef was not with the judge who gigged my wheels & tires 5(!) points. It was with the so-called experts who didn't know 914 iterations, and cleanliness. This loss still beats me up today!
Pat Garvey
QUOTE (Pat Garvey @ Apr 7 2011, 08:03 PM) *
Click to view attachment[attachment=1505
6
9:89Parade01.jpg][attachm
e
nt=150569:89Parade01.jpg]
QUOTE
Interesting scenario Pat, particularly for me trying to resto a 73 with the NLA #503 Dark Tan carpet (tan & brown speckled) that the aftermarket pile carpets don't match, as with my NLA #31 Beige interior with #501/502 Basketweave/Smooth Leathertte upholstery - restore/repair & rejuvenate, or pull it all out & redo with an as close as possible match of aftermarket stuff - lighter tan on upholstery, differing basketweave & darker carpet (I even have the samples from World Upholstery).

A conundrum to say the least, but I'm still leaning more towards fixing up with OEM materials as much as possible & give it a go!

Steve's comment to me when I visited him last Fall that he got gigged at Parade for insufficient wear on a car of the age (or something like that) still rings in my ears - but Sahara Beige is preservation, while mine will definitely be preservation.

Still, I'd like to keep as much of the old gal as I can.

BTW - I like the period pic of Fritz in your Avatar! smilie_pokal.gif


Tom,
That is a "cartoonerized" pic of the attached.

It was the '89 Parade in Michigan. I scored higher than ever before but was killed by my choice of wheels & tires (which I left on to autocross - bad decision!). I also had one judge, a supposed 914 expert, question me on having chromed inside door handle covers on a '72. Wouldn't believe me, and I almost protested but that was bad form. Interior judge gigged me for having new carpets, though he believed they were Porsche correct - another thought about protesting. In the end, I lost by 1.5 points, and it was mostly because of the tire/wheel combination. I would mention that the guy who beat me, Cole Scrogham, had an original 914 that had rust stains in the trunk. However, my master vylinder crapped out on prep day and he lent me a new one. He would probably never do that today - he's moved on to concouring brand new cars (what!?) for some time now, and wins!

My beef was not with the judge who gigged my wheels & tires 5(!) points. It was with the so-called experts who didn't know 914 iterations, and cleanliness. This loss still beats me up today!

Ooops, sorry - I stuttered!
Tom_T
Geez Pat, those interior gigs & no gig on rust stained carpet sucks, but it sounds like it wasn't enough to get past the wheel/tire choice. Just added Fritz to my pix on Red 914s, along with my buddy's Red 71 1.7!

You do have the correct Porsche chrome wheels now I assume, and some XZX 165SR15s will fit it to a Tee!
Pat Garvey
QUOTE (Tom_T @ Apr 8 2011, 03:09 AM) *
Geez Pat, those interior gigs & no gig on rust stained carpet sucks, but it sounds like it wasn't enough to get past the wheel/tire choice. Just added Fritz to my pix on Red 914s, along with my buddy's Red 71 1.7!

You do have the correct Porsche chrome wheels now I assume, and some XZX 165SR15s will fit it to a Tee!

Tom, the chrome wheels were never a Factory part. Dealer add-on. And yes, I will probably mount them again, though I have restored steelies. I just like the look & will take my lumps. In the pics that I mistakenly sent too many times the tires were Yoko A008R's. Fabulous auto-x tire of the period. If I could get them again, I would use them. Unfortunately, I mounted them on my 73T that I sold to Ferg. Won't accept XWX's. Too hard & poor performers today. XZX's maybe, but I'd really like some Pirelli CN36's (which are mounted on my steelies, but approaching 30 years of age. I'd also take some of those Dunlops, or maybe some Pirelli P6's. Tires are the least of my problem right now. Fuel system needs to be completely redone. Have almost all parts needed, but George will get a nice order for fuel & vac lines, as well as injector boots (not looking foward to that one).

Fritz WILL hit road this year. I'm determined, my wife is griping at me, and I miss driving the car.
Pat
smg914
I would assume that the availability of NOS carpet for the 356 is long gone. That said, almost every 356 restoration I've seen, the carpet looks as if it's original. Maybe it has something to do with the type of carpet that was used in the 356 that makes it easy to duplicate. George, you probably know the answer to this.

There is still quite a nice selection of NOS 914 carpet in the AA lost warehouse. I know it's pretty expensive but I would say to the 914 owner that is serious about originality, "Get it while you can". Most of the time, aftermarket carpet in a 914 stands out like a sore thumb to me. Sometimes the carpet looks ok but then the vinyl border is usually the wrong color and once again......"sore thumb"

One other thing that seems to be an easy short-cut when restoring a 356........the wheel wells are always either painted black or undercoated black. That's not fair pinch.gif . It's significantly more difficult to preserve the original factory painted body color wheel wells on a 914. All a 356 owner has to do is clean the wheel well and get out the spray can....pisssst...."It's concours again clap56.gif "

None of this of course is a real problem until your 914 wins it's division and it goes up against the 356 division winner. Advantage 356
pete000
As for local Concours PCA events here in PCA Zone 8 they only look for dirt and sometimes, but rarely a ding or chip. Originality is not a factor at all. I have been Judging for a while now and we only give tenths of a point off for a deduction. Most wins are determined by only a few tenths.
I have entered two Parades with my 911 and it seems to be a whole different game than region events.
Not sure how other regions of the PCA judge.
Tom_T
QUOTE (pete000 @ Apr 8 2011, 11:33 PM) *
As for local Concours PCA events here in PCA Zone 8 they only look for dirt and sometimes, but rarely a ding or chip. Originality is not a factor at all. I have been Judging for a while now and we only give tenths of a point off for a deduction. Most wins are determined by only a few tenths.
I have entered two Parades with my 911 and it seems to be a whole different game than region events.
Not sure how other regions of the PCA judge.

agree.gif

I took the OCR's Concours Judging Course last march `10 hoping to get tips on originality for my resto, and found too it's mostly a cleaning & waxing competition until you get to Parade or sometimes at Zone for 2 close Pcars.
Tom_T
QUOTE (Pat Garvey @ Apr 8 2011, 03:45 PM) *
QUOTE
Geez Pat, those interior gigs & no gig on rust stained carpet sucks, but it sounds like it wasn't enough to get past the wheel/tire choice. Just added Fritz to my pix on Red 914s, along with my buddy's Red 71 1.7!

You do have the correct Porsche chrome wheels now I assume, and some XZX 165SR15s will fit it to a Tee!

Tom, the chrome wheels were never a Factory part. Dealer add-on. And yes, I will probably mount them again, though I have restored steelies. I just like the look & will take my lumps. In the pics that I mistakenly sent too many times the tires were Yoko A008R's. Fabulous auto-x tire of the period. If I could get them again, I would use them. Unfortunately, I mounted them on my 73T that I sold to Ferg. Won't accept XWX's. Too hard & poor performers today. XZX's maybe, but I'd really like some Pirelli CN36's (which are mounted on my steelies, but approaching 30 years of age. I'd also take some of those Dunlops, or maybe some Pirelli P6's. Tires are the least of my problem right now. Fuel system needs to be completely redone. Have almost all parts needed, but George will get a nice order for fuel & vac lines, as well as injector boots (not looking foward to that one).

Fritz WILL hit road this year. I'm determined, my wife is griping at me, and I miss driving the car.
Pat


Hmmm, I thought Porsche sold 15x5.5 Chrome Steel Wheels for the 911/912 line, so why wouldn't that be considered original for a 914 if you optioned it from the dealer?

Oooops, there we go again with that "Polish-Logic" of PCR (HP calculator users will know what I mean by P-L - it's bass-ackwards).

Pat - I'm pretty sure that Lucas in Ohio & Long Beach CA sells the CN36 in your size 165SR15 (check the Longstone link below), but IIRC they're tube type as well. Also, I think I misspoke before - they sell XZX 165SR15, but it shows up on the Longstone trie website, which Lucas is their USA affiliate or subsidiary & can order any tires from them via UK -
http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/search?sea...p;x=85&y=13

Sounds like you'll be on the road before me!
Tom_T
QUOTE
I would assume that the availability of NOS carpet for the 356 is long gone. That said, almost every 356 restoration I've seen, the carpet looks as if it's original. Maybe it has something to do with the type of carpet that was used in the 356 that makes it easy to duplicate. George, you probably know the answer to this.

There is still quite a nice selection of NOS 914 carpet in the AA lost warehouse. I know it's pretty expensive but I would say to the 914 owner that is serious about originality, "Get it while you can". Most of the time, aftermarket carpet in a 914 stands out like a sore thumb to me. Sometimes the carpet looks ok but then the vinyl border is usually the wrong color and once again......"sore thumb"

One other thing that seems to be an easy short-cut when restoring a 356........the wheel wells are always either painted black or undercoated black. That's not fair pinch.gif . It's significantly more difficult to preserve the original factory painted body color wheel wells on a 914. All a 356 owner has to do is clean the wheel well and get out the spray can....pisssst...."It's concours again clap56.gif "

None of this of course is a real problem until your 914 wins it's division and it goes up against the 356 division winner. Advantage 356


Steve, when George checked for me last year, all he could find in my color was a passenger floor piece which I got - so I don't think he has anymore & I'd asked about a full kit or any pieces, but he offered to let me scour the attic whenever I can go back there & have some time. I'd have asked you when you did the -6 interior swap if I'd known you were there & you'd have a fat commission.

I still need a driver's mat in that #503 Dark Tan, since the DAPO had gone cheap with grey L&R floor pieces, over which I had tan coco mats back in the day - it being my DD/only car & no time to dally in the CW world. I'm trying to get it back to as when new condition with everything "missing" by DAPO or DA dealer changes/theft back into it & on it.

Personally I like the look of the 914 with the blackout wheel wells & underside, plus liking rock chip protection it affords. Just different tastes I guess, but don't know if I'll ultimately get gigged for it.

PS - are you set with that NOS fuel pump in Sahara now - all working & all?? If not, I'll be in GA at the end of the month & can bring mine for lend-lease.
Pat Garvey
QUOTE (Tom_T @ Apr 9 2011, 05:26 PM) *
QUOTE
QUOTE
Geez Pat, those interior gigs & no gig on rust stained carpet sucks, but it sounds like it wasn't enough to get past the wheel/tire choice. Just added Fritz to my pix on Red 914s, along with my buddy's Red 71 1.7!

You do have the correct Porsche chrome wheels now I assume, and some XZX 165SR15s will fit it to a Tee!

Tom, the chrome wheels were never a Factory part. Dealer add-on. And yes, I will probably mount them again, though I have restored steelies. I just like the look & will take my lumps. In the pics that I mistakenly sent too many times the tires were Yoko A008R's. Fabulous auto-x tire of the period. If I could get them again, I would use them. Unfortunately, I mounted them on my 73T that I sold to Ferg. Won't accept XWX's. Too hard & poor performers today. XZX's maybe, but I'd really like some Pirelli CN36's (which are mounted on my steelies, but approaching 30 years of age. I'd also take some of those Dunlops, or maybe some Pirelli P6's. Tires are the least of my problem right now. Fuel system needs to be completely redone. Have almost all parts needed, but George will get a nice order for fuel & vac lines, as well as injector boots (not looking foward to that one).

Fritz WILL hit road this year. I'm determined, my wife is griping at me, and I miss driving the car.
Pat


Hmmm, I thought Porsche sold 15x5.5 Chrome Steel Wheels for the 911/912 line, so why wouldn't that be considered original for a 914 if you optioned it from the dealer?

Oooops, there we go again with that "Polish-Logic" of PCR (HP calculator users will know what I mean by P-L - it's bass-ackwards).

Pat - I'm pretty sure that Lucas in Ohio & Long Beach CA sells the CN36 in your size 165SR15 (check the Longstone link below), but IIRC they're tube type as well. Also, I think I misspoke before - they sell XZX 165SR15, but it shows up on the Longstone trie website, which Lucas is their USA affiliate or subsidiary & can order any tires from them via UK -
http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/search?sea...p;x=85&y=13

Sounds like you'll be on the road before me!

Because they (914) are 4 bolt, not 5 bolt. Brazilian made in both cases, but not official Factory add-ons for 914's. The 4 bolt wheels were made for VW cars and, as far as I know, were available as a factory option with VW of the era.
Pat
pete000


If you have ever seen Joe's Grey 930 Multiple Zone 8 and Parade champion car you will notice he has blacked out wheel wells. I have seen his car win the Zuffinhauzen sp? Award at Parade which is a near perfect score at Parade level, so I think the blacked out wheel houses might not be an issue....IMHO.
smg914
QUOTE (pete000 @ Apr 10 2011, 09:16 AM) *
If you have ever seen Joe's Grey 930 Multiple Zone 8 and Parade champion car you will notice he has blacked out wheel wells. I have seen his car win the Zuffinhauzen sp? Award at Parade which is a near perfect score at Parade level, so I think the blacked out wheel houses might not be an issue....IMHO.

AFAIK 914's didn't come from the factory with the wheel wells undercoated. It was a dealer thing. So if that's the case, it would seem to me that a Parade judge would gig the car for that much like they did on the interior in George's green 6.

Once again, no consistency at the Parade level which is why I no longer participate with any of my cars. Just too much aggravation for me.
Pat Garvey
QUOTE (smg914 @ Apr 10 2011, 01:50 PM) *
QUOTE
If you have ever seen Joe's Grey 930 Multiple Zone 8 and Parade champion car you will notice he has blacked out wheel wells. I have seen his car win the Zuffinhauzen sp? Award at Parade which is a near perfect score at Parade level, so I think the blacked out wheel houses might not be an issue....IMHO.

AFAIK 914's didn't come from the factory with the wheel wells undercoated. It was a dealer thing. So if that's the case, it would seem to me that a Parade judge would gig the car for that much like they did on the interior in George's green 6.

Once again, no consistency at the Parade level which is why I no longer participate with any of my cars. Just too much aggravation for me.


Hear, hear Steve! With you on that. Too many unknowlegeable judges the way it's set up now & rules are stupid! I'll be the first to say right here that my 72 did NOT come to the dealer with blacked out inner fender walls. It was done by the dealer, with assumed kickbacks from Ziebart. Since my 914 was going to be a daily driver in midwest winters (it only took two to halt that!), I was grateful at the time. I lament it now.
Pat
Pat Garvey
QUOTE (pete000 @ Apr 10 2011, 01:16 PM) *
If you have ever seen Joe's Grey 930 Multiple Zone 8 and Parade champion car you will notice he has blacked out wheel wells. I have seen his car win the Zuffinhauzen sp? Award at Parade which is a near perfect score at Parade level, so I think the blacked out wheel houses might not be an issue....IMHO.

But they are! Read above.
pete000
QUOTE
QUOTE
If you have ever seen Joe's Grey 930 Multiple Zone 8 and Parade champion car you will notice he has blacked out wheel wells. I have seen his car win the Zuffinhauzen sp? Award at Parade which is a near perfect score at Parade level, so I think the blacked out wheel houses might not be an issue....IMHO.

But they are! Read above.



I guess it is up to the judges. I can see the frustrations. He gets no deductions for black wheel houses and others do. My 914 has the black Zebart goo that I would guess most dealers applied back in the 70's. Luckily they only applied it in the wheel wells and not all over the whole underbody.

I had a 78 924 and that this was slathered in the goop in the doors and everywhere. It sucked to work on that tar car !

Speaking of Parade Judging. I got deductions for my faded old tail lamps at the Colorado Parade. I asked how so and the Judge said they were just old and look poor. I informed him they were brand new just out of the box one week prior to the show. The 964 Porsche's used a pinkish purple plastic on the tail lamps. He responded "Well they just look bad then." The Judge had no knowledge of the 964 series at all, jeeze! why was he selected to judge that class then, and no they did not remove the deductions.
smg914
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
If you have ever seen Joe's Grey 930 Multiple Zone 8 and Parade champion car you will notice he has blacked out wheel wells. I have seen his car win the Zuffinhauzen sp? Award at Parade which is a near perfect score at Parade level, so I think the blacked out wheel houses might not be an issue....IMHO.

But they are! Read above.



I guess it is up to the judges. I can see the frustrations. He gets no deductions for black wheel houses and others do. My 914 has the black Zebart goo that I would guess most dealers applied back in the 70's. Luckily they only applied it in the wheel wells and not all over the whole underbody.

I had a 78 924 and that this was slathered in the goop in the doors and everywhere. It sucked to work on that tar car !

Speaking of Parade Judging. I got deductions for my faded old tail lamps at the Colorado Parade. I asked how so and the Judge said they were just old and look poor. I informed him they were brand new just out of the box one week prior to the show. The 964 Porsche's used a pinkish purple plastic on the tail lamps. He responded "Well they just look bad then." The Judge had no knowledge of the 964 series at all, jeeze! why was he selected to judge that class then, and no they did not remove the deductions.

Now that's frustration at it's best! Judges don't seem to realize, these type of situations are never forgotten by the entrant. I guess if you go into a Parade concours with absolutely no thought of winning, you'd never get frustrated. Unfortunately, every competition I enter whether it be tennis, racing, autocross, concours, or monopoly, I want to win. I've been this way since I was 2.
Tom_T
After our rousing discussion here, I started looking into some of the possible 914 options and found a few things. Just to clarify a few glaring misconceptions on what options were supposedly "never from the factory" or "always done by the dealers" -

Undercoating -
M640 - PVC undercoating
> (BTW - my 73 2L was a CA car sold 11/9/72 & fully undercoated @ underpan & wheel wells by the dealer, even in Sunny SoCal!)

Passenger Side Mirror (Convex) -
M528 - Convex mirror passenger side

Chrome Plated Steel Wheels (not sure if 4 or 5 Lug) -
M976 - Chrome plated steel wheels, 5.5Jx15 with 165HR15 whitewall tires
> (This looks like 914-6's 5 lug, as used on 911s/912s?)

H4 & H3 Halogen Headlights & Driving/Fog Lights -
(Although it is known that the US-DOT hadn't approved Halogen yet in 69-76) -
M551 - Halogen headlights (H4 headlights as in Comfort [Sport?] Equipment)
M433 - Halogen H3 driving lights
M659 - Halogen fog and driving lights

2+1 Seating & Center Seatbelt -
M166 - Seat belt for M570 (not supplied in Comfort Equipment)
M186 - Seat belt for M570 (not for US vehicles)
M570 - Center seat cushion (as in Comfort Equipment)

Radios & Antennas/Speakers in "Radio Ready" options -
M490 - Electric antenna
M440 - Antenna on left with speakers andů.? (ostensibly for the dealer to provide the radio of the buyer's choice)
> VW still does this, as we bought our 88 Westy new & that's how it came "radio ready" as the option - no radio, tbd by buyer from dealer or aftermarket source.
M? - Loudspeakers, speaker covers, mechanical antenna on left, for all radios
> Apparently this became std. eqpt. 75 & 76 MYs in Europe.

M095 - Blaupunkt radio - Wolfsburg (MW-LW)
M096 - Blaupunkt radio - Braunshweig
M097 - Blaupunkt radio - Emden with electric antenna (MW-LW-UW)
M196 - Radio Hannover (stereo - with automatic search)
M450 - Blaupunkt radio - Boston
M452 - Blaupunkt radio - Frankfurt
M453 - Blaupunkt radio - Frankfurt, USA market
M454 - Blaupunkt radio - Koln
M455 - Blaupunkt radio - New York
M459 - Becker radio - Grand Prix
M460 - Becker radio - Grand Prix with left side antenna andů.
M587 - [Blaupunkt?] Hannover radio (MW-LW-UW) with automatic antenna
> That's an awful lot of M-options" for radios on a car that supposedly never left the factory with a radio at all, let alone the antenna & speakers, and it doesn't includes the Motorola, VPC & other radio mfgrs. who were contracted to provide them - even down to the plastic dash cover plate matching the dash basketweave leatherette fabric facing!

Source: http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/OpEq.htm

So I say, why should it matter to PCA Judges whether a certain option was added at the dealership to further "complete the car's fitment" for the owner, with an available option(s) from the factory or outside supplier franchised/authorized by Porsche?

IMHO it should not! smilie_pokal.gif
Pat Garvey
Because it was not Factory. Plain and simple.

It is my belief that a fully concours/original 914 should be shown as offloaded at the dealership (my opinion here), and before the dealers had thier way with it!

If you look at vintage & slassic marques from other manufacturers and look closely, the winners are the cars that have been restored/refurbished/preserved in that condition. Fortunately for those owners, they weren't plagued by dealer installed goo & goo-gaas because the factory had control of the dealers.

One of the finest cars I competed against in a multi-marque even was a '57 T-Bird. Restored to the point of offloading from the carrier, with shimms to tune the chassis taped to the bottom rails. THAT was a perfect concours resto! Whipped the snot out of me! And correctly so.
Pat
pete000
Here is an example of my CA delivered 914 with a nice spatter of good old dealer applied Zibart tar !

Cleans off pretty easily with "Goof Off" Grafitti remover.

Tom_T
QUOTE (Pat Garvey @ Apr 11 2011, 03:51 PM) *
Because it was not Factory. Plain and simple.

It is my belief that a fully concours/original 914 should be shown as offloaded at the dealership (my opinion here), and before the dealers had thier way with it!

If you look at vintage & slassic marques from other manufacturers and look closely, the winners are the cars that have been restored/refurbished/preserved in that condition. Fortunately for those owners, they weren't plagued by dealer installed goo & goo-gaas because the factory had control of the dealers.

One of the finest cars I competed against in a multi-marque even was a '57 T-Bird. Restored to the point of offloading from the carrier, with shimms to tune the chassis taped to the bottom rails. THAT was a perfect concours resto! Whipped the snot out of me! And correctly so.
Pat



We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one Pat, cuz MHO a classic or vintage car should reflect how they were actually purchased and used - not how they were shipped. Otherwise the only "correct" Porsche would have to include that crap that they sprayed over them for oceanic shipping, which was later removed at the dealership as part of "Dealer Prep" charged on every car. Likewise, using that criteria all of the 1900-1930s +/- classic cars produced as a chassis then shipped to a custom coach builder for a body (e.g.: Dusenburg, Packards, Bentleys, etc.) could only be shown as a "raw chassis" - which makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.

Obviously that is not the rules for multi-marque shows, nor is the strictest interpretation which plagued you vs. the T-Bird - although clearly some judges do run amok & use their own "interpretations" of the rules, which is why they provide for challenges.

IMHO there is a difference between "dealer goo" & legitimate factory supplied &/or authorized options & accessories specifically intended to be added at customer request to their cars - of any marque.

An example which I think goes too far is the dealer provided wood dash cover, turned aluminum threshold plates, hood badge, & Western wheels which were on my buddy's 71 Bahia Red 914/ as a result of a prior buyer ordering it that way then canceling, and my buddy got a good price as is as a result (see pic below). Jerry isn't a CW guy, but rather just a perfectionist about keeping his cars nice, and that's the factory red paint, carpet & upholstery - which color paint is very hard to keep from oxidizing here in the strong sun of SoCal.

Jerry's 71 914 1.7 - original & only owner - all as it came from the dealer with exceptions noted above and: rechromed F bumper with license plate holes filled, rocker panels replaced with factory parts (due to damage when used as DD & ski trips), tires replaced over the years & other regular maintenance items, original warranty dealer rebuilt motor due to dropped valve, dealer supplied radio & CD player added into glovebox & upgraded speakers (his sons B-day present a couple of years back) - AFAIK.

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

In all fairness too, IMHO this would lose out to Pat's more original 72 1.7 & Steve's 73 2L Sahara though, assuming equal level of prep on all 3 cars.

Tom_T
QUOTE (pete000 @ Apr 11 2011, 09:07 PM) *
Here is an example of my CA delivered 914 with a nice spatter of good old dealer applied Zibart tar !

Cleans off pretty easily with "Goof Off" Grafitti remover.



Same on my 73 2L too -

Click to view attachment

But the factory did also supply the M640 undercoating as a factory option.

I think that due to the distance from Germany to the USA, not knowing which options a particular buyer will want, and the need to outsource a large number of options back then (same for all auto mfgrs. in pre-80's time) - that Porsche & the other auto mfgrs. rightly decided to ship mostly basic cars with a basic set of options with a few Loaded cars, then let the dealers fulfill each buyer's desires on the spot - rather than having to wait MONTHS to special order a car with the exact set of options from the factory.

This clearly applied to BOTH 914s & 911s/912s of the 60's & 70's.
Pat Garvey
QUOTE (Tom_T @ Apr 12 2011, 05:24 PM) *
QUOTE
Because it was not Factory. Plain and simple.

It is my belief that a fully concours/original 914 should be shown as offloaded at the dealership (my opinion here), and before the dealers had thier way with it!

If you look at vintage & slassic marques from other manufacturers and look closely, the winners are the cars that have been restored/refurbished/preserved in that condition. Fortunately for those owners, they weren't plagued by dealer installed goo & goo-gaas because the factory had control of the dealers.

One of the finest cars I competed against in a multi-marque even was a '57 T-Bird. Restored to the point of offloading from the carrier, with shimms to tune the chassis taped to the bottom rails. THAT was a perfect concours resto! Whipped the snot out of me! And correctly so.
Pat



We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one Pat, cuz MHO a classic or vintage car should reflect how they were actually purchased and used - not how they were shipped. Otherwise the only "correct" Porsche would have to include that crap that they sprayed over them for oceanic shipping, which was later removed at the dealership as part of "Dealer Prep" charged on every car. Likewise, using that criteria all of the 1900-1930s +/- classic cars produced as a chassis then shipped to a custom coach builder for a body (e.g.: Dusenburg, Packards, Bentleys, etc.) could only be shown as a "raw chassis" - which makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.

Obviously that is not the rules for multi-marque shows, nor is the strictest interpretation which plagued you vs. the T-Bird - although clearly some judges do run amok & use their own "interpretations" of the rules, which is why they provide for challenges.

IMHO there is a difference between "dealer goo" & legitimate factory supplied &/or authorized options & accessories specifically intended to be added at customer request to their cars - of any marque.

An example which I think goes too far is the dealer provided wood dash cover, turned aluminum threshold plates, hood badge, & Western wheels which were on my buddy's 71 Bahia Red 914/ as a result of a prior buyer ordering it that way then canceling, and my buddy got a good price as is as a result (see pic below). Jerry isn't a CW guy, but rather just a perfectionist about keeping his cars nice, and that's the factory red paint, carpet & upholstery - which color paint is very hard to keep from oxidizing here in the strong sun of SoCal.

Jerry's 71 914 1.7 - original & only owner - all as it came from the dealer with exceptions noted above and: rechromed F bumper with license plate holes filled, rocker panels replaced with factory parts (due to damage when used as DD & ski trips), tires replaced over the years & other regular maintenance items, original warranty dealer rebuilt motor due to dropped valve, dealer supplied radio & CD player added into glovebox & upgraded speakers (his sons B-day present a couple of years back) - AFAIK.

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

In all fairness too, IMHO this would lose out to Pat's more original 72 1.7 & Steve's 73 2L Sahara though, assuming equal level of prep on all 3 cars.

Tom,

We (concors weenies) all search for the level we wish to win at. I've always chosen the higher road, where originality per the Factory is the target. Others may have fifferent targets. Personally, I think the current PCR's are downright stupid - too many classes. But I'll give them this - they are straightforward, and you can choose to participate in several venues. Of course, me being me, I disagree with anything that isn't pure concours. I don't care if your 914 is well preserved or fully factory restored - we should stand together as a mass. I think the judging should be done by the best 914 experts out there (911's/912's,etc for the other classes). I think questions should be asked to the owner by the judges. I think that the spare & all tools should be displayed in front of the car. I think the underside judges should put hands on the car, looking for dirt, oil, grease, dead rats, etc. I think PCA should go back to thier roots for Parade concours judging - give them a lab coat & white gloves & let them REALLY judge the car for cleanliness. Let the topside guys ask questions about those dubious chrome wheels, that wood facing on the dash, that 8 track player, etc. Know that you'll be gigged for an area & make up for it in another.

What used to be simple rules to play the concours game have changed, and not for the better.

Know the rules & play them.

Sidebar: I did it for many years but it has become too difficult to interpret the rules (PCA) these days. I don't like them, and have tried 5 times to have them changed, or even to be a voice, and have been turned down.

Hell, you don't even have locals involved putting on a Parade concours now - it's corporate & the locals are shut out. National teams are in control. The locals are only there to clean up!

When I was Concours Chairman for the '93 Parade I spent 10 months of torture trying to make a concours in the heat & humidity of late summer weather in Cincinnati. I had to rent semi-indoor space for prep, rent a convention center, rent carpet, provide vendors, etc. But, it all paid off when the concours day arrived! These days, the "promoter" just moves in & moves off to another venue. The locals, who've worked very hard for 24 months, are just pawns. They get no glory.

But, at the same time, if you understand the rules and work them to your advantage you can still place well.

Now, multi-marque events are a hoot. With the exception of half a dozen really serious multi's they are outrageous fun. When a slick 914 is invited, it usually does well. Judges are picked from local clubs. The Jag guys know Jags, the Healey guys know them, the prancing horse guys the same. But when a really nice 914 is mixed in, or a 356, the judges scramble together. "How are we going to judge these cars" "There are German cars mixed in here" "Yes, but they were invited". So, since Joe knows nothing about Ferrari's, and Bob knows nothing about Healeys.......they decide to judge on preparation. Happens frequently in the multi-marque venue.
Tom_T
I doubt Jerry will ever do a CdE, although his "Mr. Perfect" nickname fits him to a "Tee"!! lol.gif

He's his own person, and actually wanted to switch the wood dash face for a turned aluminum aftermarket type that used to be available out there, as well as adding some more footwell floor protection plates of the same.

All of his other cars over the years he has de-badged for some odd reason (he says he likes the clean look on the back face) - including a sweet black Z28, BMW 633i, & current Infinity G35 or G37 - how the heck do I know, he took the badge off! lol.gif
He did say he's glad he didn't de-badge his 914, and a purist can take his 71 914/4 back to original if desired - if he ever sells it.

As for what you're saying above - I really don't disagree with 99% of it!

But rather - in one small area I feel that the vintage AM/FM/8-Track & antenna/speakers package that was installed with my 73 2L (using your example) - or any other Pcar, is a perfectly acceptable CdE element which should NOT be gigged, nor should any other factory available options &/or Porsche authorized 3rd party option/accessory is included on the vehicle in Full CdE - if it was available in that period of production - preferably if it can be shown to be installed on the specific car then too.

What you're saying about how locals are treated by the national crew & promoters/vendors really sucks!

As for me - I've never done CdE, AX, DE nor any of the other PCA fun-n-games & it's all new to me, so I'll probably give it a try once or a few, but eventually I'll just want to enjoy driving my 914 again for the halibut - & put the Q-tips aside in the interest of using my 914 for what she was designed. Back in the 70's & 80's she was my DD & only car, and I was far too busy with work, getting my Architect & Real Estate Broker licenses, MBA & of course playing some serious Rugby - to have any spare time for PCA. It will be nice to get her into the as new" condition which I never had, since much of the 73 2L upgrades had been removed by the time I got it in Dec. 75 for some strange reasons (L80E paint color changed, Fuchs, Center Console/Gauges & Driving/Foglights/Switch all removed), and she was 3 years well used with 45k miles by then.

Unfortunately at my current rate with all the distractions, I may be into my 60's before the resto/repair is done & it's roadworthy again! pinch.gif

I think it should all be about the camraderie, and hope that friends can differ on certain things, without losing friendships!

Cheers Bud! beerchug.gif
Pat Garvey
QUOTE (Tom_T @ Apr 13 2011, 02:13 AM) *
I doubt Jerry will ever do a CdE, although his "Mr. Perfect" nickname fits him to a "Tee"!! lol.gif

He's his own person, and actually wanted to switch the wood dash face for a turned aluminum aftermarket type that used to be available out there, as well as adding some more footwell floor protection plates of the same.

All of his other cars over the years he has de-badged for some odd reason (he says he likes the clean look on the back face) - including a sweet black Z28, BMW 633i, & current Infinity G35 or G37 - how the heck do I know, he took the badge off! lol.gif
He did say he's glad he didn't de-badge his 914, and a purist can take his 71 914/4 back to original if desired - if he ever sells it.

As for what you're saying above - I really don't disagree with 99% of it!

But rather - in one small area I feel that the vintage AM/FM/8-Track & antenna/speakers package that was installed with my 73 2L (using your example) - or any other Pcar, is a perfectly acceptable CdE element which should NOT be gigged, nor should any other factory available options &/or Porsche authorized 3rd party option/accessory is included on the vehicle in Full CdE - if it was available in that period of production - preferably if it can be shown to be installed on the specific car then too.

What you're saying about how locals are treated by the national crew & promoters/vendors really sucks!

As for me - I've never done CdE, AX, DE nor any of the other PCA fun-n-games & it's all new to me, so I'll probably give it a try once or a few, but eventually I'll just want to enjoy driving my 914 again for the halibut - & put the Q-tips aside in the interest of using my 914 for what she was designed. Back in the 70's & 80's she was my DD & only car, and I was far too busy with work, getting my Architect & Real Estate Broker licenses, MBA & of course playing some serious Rugby - to have any spare time for PCA. It will be nice to get her into the as new" condition which I never had, since much of the 73 2L upgrades had been removed by the time I got it in Dec. 75 for some strange reasons (L80E paint color changed, Fuchs, Center Console/Gauges & Driving/Foglights/Switch all removed), and she was 3 years well used with 45k miles by then.

Unfortunately at my current rate with all the distractions, I may be into my 60's before the resto/repair is done & it's roadworthy again! pinch.gif

I think it should all be about the camraderie, and hope that friends can differ on certain things, without losing friendships!

Cheers Bud! beerchug.gif

I agree with you on the 8 track. Other than really whacko systems, I've never seen anyone giged for "period" system, so long as the door panels weren't holed and the original speaker enclosures were used.
Pat
Tom_T
QUOTE
I agree with you on the 8 track. Other than really whacko systems, I've never seen anyone giged for "period" system, so long as the door panels weren't holed and the original speaker enclosures were used.
Pat


Oh Geeez, don't get me started on that one! blowup.gif

Even on DD 914s the holed door panels drive me over the edge! mad.gif

It's like these folks cannot figure out what "those little boxes in the footwells" were for in the first place, and then some actually ask on here & world!! pinch.gif

Then they go cut the holes anyway so they can add the 8000 whut Audio that you can't really hear over the motor & road noise with the top anyway, but the neighborhood hears it better than in th car! Maybe without the bone cruncher / kidney jiggler sound system, they could actually HEAR how the 914 is performing, know when to shift by ear, when someting is amiss, etc.!!!!
Id's! spank.gif
oakpark
Interesting series. I've only competed on the local level in Chicago. No originality, just how well kept is the car. You can leave your cell phone in the car if you want it judged. I've never felt shorted by our local judging.

I've also judged on the region level and its tough when you get a mixed class of cars to judge. I rely on the age and mileage bonus points to make the difference and just judge cleanliness and condition.
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