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> 914 running problem, cannot figure it out believe it or not
Dr. 914
post Aug 16 2017, 08:17 AM
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Dr. 914
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So a customer brought us a car from California, 73 1.7 had been sitting for 15 years, but inside, and said that before he stored it, it had a running problem. I thought, no problem, it is coming to the right place. If we cannot fix a 914 running problem no one can. What I did not know is that he had had it to three different repair shops in California, and NO ONE could solve the problem. I should have asked ahead of time.
The car also needed the standard fare after sitting so long, cleaning out the gas tank, replacing the master cylinder caliper rebuilds, shifter bushings, thorough service, cleaning out the rats nests, etc. We did all of than including a major service, tuneup valve adjust compression and leak down, dwell and timing. After that the car started right up and idled very smoothly. We thought "that was easy" and were ready to finish up a few cosmetic things and then deliver the car. Having not driven the car, we did notice that it seemed a bit anemic when revved up, but maybe after driving a bit, the injectors would clean up and everything be ok?
Well not a chance. The car would, upon acceleration, fall on its face, and even when floored, not go over 4000 rpm and ping. Very strange. No way that ANYONE could drive this car. Upon returning to idle, the car once again resumed its mild composure and very smooth even idle.
At this point, I stepped in, KNOWING that I could solve the problem (not this time!!!) I had the men try all of the common stuff, thinking that it was running out of fuel supply at the higher rpms, including in no particular order: rechecking the fuel supply, checking the head temp sensor, the throttle switch, the control unit, the trigger points, the pressure sensor, the fuel pump, the fuel lines, the injectors, the intake system, the charging system, the air temp sensor, the cold start valve, the aux air valve, and today, are finally going to switch the control unit harness.
The fuel pressure and delivery rate is perfect, as I had said compression and leak down are excellent, timing and dwell and advance are all perfect, and injector spray pattern is great. Today we are substituting the injection harness as a last resort.

Yesterday, I finally called the owner to get some history on the car, something that I never thought that I would need for a simple running problem. He told me about the three shops not being able to solve the problem, and that he had had someone install a "new" engine in the car those many years ago, and that it never ran as well as his original. He had only driven the car a few hundred miles before the long storage.

So we are in a dilemma here: Where to go next. I have a very good idea of what could be wrong to cause this running problem and what we will need to do, but does anyone out there have any suggestions before we proceed? More to comeAttached File  IMG_1471.JPG ( 112.3K ) Number of downloads: 1
[attachment=159
443:IMG_1472.JPG][attachme
nt=159444:IMG_1474.JPG]
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Attached File  IMG_1472.JPG ( 106.13K ) Number of downloads: 0
Attached File  IMG_1474.JPG ( 96.25K ) Number of downloads: 0
 
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RonnieJ
post Aug 16 2017, 11:25 AM
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QUOTE (Dr. 914 @ Aug 16 2017, 09:17 AM) *
So a customer brought us a car from California, 73 1.7 had been sitting for 15 years, but inside, and said that before he stored it, it had a running problem. I thought, no problem, it is coming to the right place. If we cannot fix a 914 running problem no one can. What I did not know is that he had had it to three different repair shops in California, and NO ONE could solve the problem. I should have asked ahead of time.
The car also needed the standard fare after sitting so long, cleaning out the gas tank, replacing the master cylinder caliper rebuilds, shifter bushings, thorough service, cleaning out the rats nests, etc. We did all of than including a major service, tuneup valve adjust compression and leak down, dwell and timing. After that the car started right up and idled very smoothly. We thought "that was easy" and were ready to finish up a few cosmetic things and then deliver the car. Having not driven the car, we did notice that it seemed a bit anemic when revved up, but maybe after driving a bit, the injectors would clean up and everything be ok?
Well not a chance. The car would, upon acceleration, fall on its face, and even when floored, not go over 4000 rpm and ping. Very strange. No way that ANYONE could drive this car. Upon returning to idle, the car once again resumed its mild composure and very smooth even idle.
At this point, I stepped in, KNOWING that I could solve the problem (not this time!!!) I had the men try all of the common stuff, thinking that it was running out of fuel supply at the higher rpms, including in no particular order: rechecking the fuel supply, checking the head temp sensor, the throttle switch, the control unit, the trigger points, the pressure sensor, the fuel pump, the fuel lines, the injectors, the intake system, the charging system, the air temp sensor, the cold start valve, the aux air valve, and today, are finally going to switch the control unit harness.
The fuel pressure and delivery rate is perfect, as I had said compression and leak down are excellent, timing and dwell and advance are all perfect, and injector spray pattern is great. Today we are substituting the injection harness as a last resort.

Yesterday, I finally called the owner to get some history on the car, something that I never thought that I would need for a simple running problem. He told me about the three shops not being able to solve the problem, and that he had had someone install a "new" engine in the car those many years ago, and that it never ran as well as his original. He had only driven the car a few hundred miles before the long storage.

So we are in a dilemma here: Where to go next. I have a very good idea of what could be wrong to cause this running problem and what we will need to do, but does anyone out there have any suggestions before we proceed? More to comeAttached File  IMG_1471.JPG ( 112.3K ) Number of downloads: 1
[attachment=15
9
443:IMG_1472.JPG][attachm
e
nt=159444:IMG_1474.JPG]


George, Did you looked for a kinked fuel line or clogged fuel filter....sounds like it's starving for fuel.
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Dr. 914
post Aug 16 2017, 03:15 PM
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sounds that way to us too. The funny thing is that at the upper rpm when it is starving for fuel, if you add a bit to the throttle body with a spray can, it actually chokes down and spits black smoke out the back of the car as if it is moilingly rich. Also the plugs are blacker than they should be



QUOTE (RonnieJ @ Aug 16 2017, 11:25 AM) *
QUOTE
So a customer brought us a car from California, 73 1.7 had been sitting for 15 years, but inside, and said that before he stored it, it had a running problem. I thought, no problem, it is coming to the right place. If we cannot fix a 914 running problem no one can. What I did not know is that he had had it to three different repair shops in California, and NO ONE could solve the problem. I should have asked ahead of time.
The car also needed the standard fare after sitting so long, cleaning out the gas tank, replacing the master cylinder caliper rebuilds, shifter bushings, thorough service, cleaning out the rats nests, etc. We did all of than including a major service, tuneup valve adjust compression and leak down, dwell and timing. After that the car started right up and idled very smoothly. We thought "that was easy" and were ready to finish up a few cosmetic things and then deliver the car. Having not driven the car, we did notice that it seemed a bit anemic when revved up, but maybe after driving a bit, the injectors would clean up and everything be ok?
Well not a chance. The car would, upon acceleration, fall on its face, and even when floored, not go over 4000 rpm and ping. Very strange. No way that ANYONE could drive this car. Upon returning to idle, the car once again resumed its mild composure and very smooth even idle.
At this point, I stepped in, KNOWING that I could solve the problem (not this time!!!) I had the men try all of the common stuff, thinking that it was running out of fuel supply at the higher rpms, including in no particular order: rechecking the fuel supply, checking the head temp sensor, the throttle switch, the control unit, the trigger points, the pressure sensor, the fuel pump, the fuel lines, the injectors, the intake system, the charging system, the air temp sensor, the cold start valve, the aux air valve, and today, are finally going to switch the control unit harness.
The fuel pressure and delivery rate is perfect, as I had said compression and leak down are excellent, timing and dwell and advance are all perfect, and injector spray pattern is great. Today we are substituting the injection harness as a last resort.

Yesterday, I finally called the owner to get some history on the car, something that I never thought that I would need for a simple running problem. He told me about the three shops not being able to solve the problem, and that he had had someone install a "new" engine in the car those many years ago, and that it never ran as well as his original. He had only driven the car a few hundred miles before the long storage.

So we are in a dilemma here: Where to go next. I have a very good idea of what could be wrong to cause this running problem and what we will need to do, but does anyone out there have any suggestions before we proceed? More to comeAttached File  IMG_1471.JPG ( 112.3K ) Number of downloads: 1
[attachment=15
9
443:IMG_1472.JPG][attachm
e
nt=159444:IMG_1474.JPG]


George, Did you looked for a kinked fuel line or clogged fuel filter....sounds like it's starving for fuel.
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904svo
post Aug 16 2017, 06:52 PM
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QUOTE
sounds that way to us too. The funny thing is that at the upper rpm when it is starving for fuel, if you add a bit to the throttle body with a spray can, it actually chokes down and spits black smoke out the back of the car as if it is moilingly rich. Also the plugs are blacker than they should be



QUOTE
QUOTE
So a customer brought us a car from California, 73 1.7 had been sitting for 15 years, but inside, and said that before he stored it, it had a running problem. I thought, no problem, it is coming to the right place. If we cannot fix a 914 running problem no one can. What I did not know is that he had had it to three different repair shops in California, and NO ONE could solve the problem. I should have asked ahead of time.
The car also needed the standard fare after sitting so long, cleaning out the gas tank, replacing the master cylinder caliper rebuilds, shifter bushings, thorough service, cleaning out the rats nests, etc. We did all of than including a major service, tuneup valve adjust compression and leak down, dwell and timing. After that the car started right up and idled very smoothly. We thought "that was easy" and were ready to finish up a few cosmetic things and then deliver the car. Having not driven the car, we did notice that it seemed a bit anemic when revved up, but maybe after driving a bit, the injectors would clean up and everything be ok?
Well not a chance. The car would, upon acceleration, fall on its face, and even when floored, not go over 4000 rpm and ping. Very strange. No way that ANYONE could drive this car. Upon returning to idle, the car once again resumed its mild composure and very smooth even idle.
At this point, I stepped in, KNOWING that I could solve the problem (not this time!!!) I had the men try all of the common stuff, thinking that it was running out of fuel supply at the higher rpms, including in no particular order: rechecking the fuel supply, checking the head temp sensor, the throttle switch, the control unit, the trigger points, the pressure sensor, the fuel pump, the fuel lines, the injectors, the intake system, the charging system, the air temp sensor, the cold start valve, the aux air valve, and today, are finally going to switch the control unit harness.
The fuel pressure and delivery rate is perfect, as I had said compression and leak down are excellent, timing and dwell and advance are all perfect, and injector spray pattern is great. Today we are substituting the injection harness as a last resort.

Yesterday, I finally called the owner to get some history on the car, something that I never thought that I would need for a simple running problem. He told me about the three shops not being able to solve the problem, and that he had had someone install a "new" engine in the car those many years ago, and that it never ran as well as his original. He had only driven the car a few hundred miles before the long storage.

So we are in a dilemma here: Where to go next. I have a very good idea of what could be wrong to cause this running problem and what we will need to do, but does anyone out there have any suggestions before we proceed? More to comeAttached File  IMG_1471.JPG ( 112.3K ) Number of downloads: 1
[attachment=15
9
443:IMG_1472.JPG][attachm
e
nt=159444:IMG_1474.JPG]


George, Did you looked for a kinked fuel line or clogged fuel filter....sounds like it's starving for fuel.



George,
It sounds like the cam or the cam gear is out of time or it has a bad cam installed not 914.
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Dr. 914
post Aug 17 2017, 08:21 AM
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Excellent call and I would certainly value your advice very highly with all of your life's experience, , Larry. Actually that is the conclusion I had come to as well, William suggested a clogged exhaust so we checked that today, but it is clear.
I had made the decision earlier this week that we would have to tear down the engine and called the customer to get his approval. Hopefully now we will see that the cam timing, the cam, and or the gear is out of sync and that is causing the whole problem, after hours and hours of diagnosis


QUOTE (904svo @ Aug 16 2017, 06:52 PM) *
QUOTE
sounds that way to us too. The funny thing is that at the upper rpm when it is starving for fuel, if you add a bit to the throttle body with a spray can, it actually chokes down and spits black smoke out the back of the car as if it is moilingly rich. Also the plugs are blacker than they should be



QUOTE
QUOTE
So a customer brought us a car from California, 73 1.7 had been sitting for 15 years, but inside, and said that before he stored it, it had a running problem. I thought, no problem, it is coming to the right place. If we cannot fix a 914 running problem no one can. What I did not know is that he had had it to three different repair shops in California, and NO ONE could solve the problem. I should have asked ahead of time.
The car also needed the standard fare after sitting so long, cleaning out the gas tank, replacing the master cylinder caliper rebuilds, shifter bushings, thorough service, cleaning out the rats nests, etc. We did all of than including a major service, tuneup valve adjust compression and leak down, dwell and timing. After that the car started right up and idled very smoothly. We thought "that was easy" and were ready to finish up a few cosmetic things and then deliver the car. Having not driven the car, we did notice that it seemed a bit anemic when revved up, but maybe after driving a bit, the injectors would clean up and everything be ok?
Well not a chance. The car would, upon acceleration, fall on its face, and even when floored, not go over 4000 rpm and ping. Very strange. No way that ANYONE could drive this car. Upon returning to idle, the car once again resumed its mild composure and very smooth even idle.
At this point, I stepped in, KNOWING that I could solve the problem (not this time!!!) I had the men try all of the common stuff, thinking that it was running out of fuel supply at the higher rpms, including in no particular order: rechecking the fuel supply, checking the head temp sensor, the throttle switch, the control unit, the trigger points, the pressure sensor, the fuel pump, the fuel lines, the injectors, the intake system, the charging system, the air temp sensor, the cold start valve, the aux air valve, and today, are finally going to switch the control unit harness.
The fuel pressure and delivery rate is perfect, as I had said compression and leak down are excellent, timing and dwell and advance are all perfect, and injector spray pattern is great. Today we are substituting the injection harness as a last resort.

Yesterday, I finally called the owner to get some history on the car, something that I never thought that I would need for a simple running problem. He told me about the three shops not being able to solve the problem, and that he had had someone install a "new" engine in the car those many years ago, and that it never ran as well as his original. He had only driven the car a few hundred miles before the long storage.

So we are in a dilemma here: Where to go next. I have a very good idea of what could be wrong to cause this running problem and what we will need to do, but does anyone out there have any suggestions before we proceed? More to comeAttached File  IMG_1471.JPG ( 112.3K ) Number of downloads: 1
[attachment=15
9
443:IMG_1472.JPG][attachm
e
nt=159444:IMG_1474.JPG]


George, Did you looked for a kinked fuel line or clogged fuel filter....sounds like it's starving for fuel.



George,
It sounds like the cam or the cam gear is out of time or it has a bad cam installed not 914.
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904svo
post Aug 17 2017, 05:53 PM
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George,

Have you try changing out the coil, it might be breaking down at higher rpm's causing real weak spark and not firing off
the mixture.
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Dr. 914
post Aug 18 2017, 08:47 AM
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Thank you so much for coming by and listening to the engine. NOW what do you think?


QUOTE (904svo @ Aug 17 2017, 05:53 PM) *
George,

Have you try changing out the coil, it might be breaking down at higher rpm's causing real weak spark and not firing off
the mixture.

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mmichalik
post Sep 12 2017, 03:24 PM
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Were you able to fix it? What was the problem? Inquiring minds want to know.
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Dr. 914
post Sep 12 2017, 04:26 PM
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so finally after spending three days checking and switching everything, we called and spoke with the owner who said he had the engine "switched out" about 15 years ago, and it never ran as well as his old engine, so he parked it after only driving 200 miles.
With that evidence, we have determined that the cam timing is off and must tear the engine down to reset the timing. We have not done that as of yet but that will be our next step. To be continued…..




QUOTE (mmichalik @ Sep 12 2017, 03:24 PM) *
Were you able to fix it? What was the problem? Inquiring minds want to know.
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