Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Reply to this topicStart new topic
> 1970-72 914-6/914-4 Seatbelt Holster, O&H Info for the CW Types
post May 13 2017, 11:20 AM
Post #1

Senior Member

Group: SuperMod
Posts: 571
Joined: April 6, 2009
From: Orange CA - SoCal
Member No.: 18,200

I'm posting a copy of this info here, from what I posted on the same at 914world's Originality & History Forum, both for those who don't go there, & those who prefer not to deal with the egos & OT harassment which has evolved on that topic.

Please keep in mind that I am only the MESSENGER relaying the info from a judge/restorer friend who is far more experienced in 914s than I, & that I do NOT own a 914 in this era (mine is a 73 2L).

So feel free to add any useful & helpful info., but keep in mind that any contentions for or against this or any other originality issue which is accepted by the judges/team as correct or not, will be unlikely to prevail unless you have specific written documentation from Porsche to the contrary of the judge's/team's &/or make/model expert's expert opinion on the item (whether this holster/holder or anything else).

For those who will be showing at Parade in Spokane next month, I suspect that this particular item has probably now been brought to the attention of the Concours judges/teams there doing the 914's (or will be soon), due to the BS by other naysayers going on at the same topic in 914world (you can thank them for their ignorance & ill manners). So this item is likely or maybe probable to be looked at at least in the top Full Restoration & Preservation divisions, & possibly in more.

Here was the info which I posted there....

For those CW's who care, I'll pass along some info which was given to me in a couple of emails from a renown 914 restoration expert & judge involved since from the old days when they were new.

I decided to share this with the O&H Forum where most of we CWs look for help, for informational purposes, & note that mine is an early 73 2.0 - so I have no vested interest in this item on my 914. However, I may someday be called upon to judge where this originality item may come into the judging criteria, but read below for where that comes into play.

So please don't shoot the messenger on this if you disagree, & try to treat your posted inputs congenially & helpfully to fellow members who are restoring &/or preparing their early 914s for show .... or sale.

As for my own judging background - I've been in PCA since 2009 & took the Zone 8 Judging School then (+ every year or two since), have been judging in PCA Zone 8 since 2010 at 3-5+ Concours events a year (so probably over 25-30 CdEs so far I'd guess, without looking at my past years' calendars) - but not at any PCA Parades to date nor AACA/CCCA/etc. CdE yet where originality is judged - & in the process I have gotten to know many more qualified judges & restorers of these fun 914 cars in that time than am I, as well as those whom I've met over the long time since 1970.

I got my 73 914-2.0 ("914S") in 1975 as 2nd owner, & drooled over them at the dealers & over other folks' 914s since they were released in Fall of 1969. I did shortly consider getting a new 914/4 as my 1st car in Fall 1970, but my budget was only $800 & I wouldn't have the means to make enough money to both make payments/insurance, & pay for my college degree - so I waited until after I graduated in June `74 & then had a good job to get mine in `75. So I've been around 914s since 1970, looked at many over 1975 to purchase new or used, & have owned mine since Dec. 1975, & had done a repaint/rust repair in Summer 1976, & a full cosmetic & mechanical rolling resto/refurb in 1980-83, & have been researching, parts sourcing & slowing working on it's 3rd & full resto since 2009.

My concours experience goes back further than my 914 ownership & later judging, as I'd also helped one of my uncles with his prep & restoration of his 1958 Corvette back in the mid-1960's for the much more stringent on originality Corvette Club, before it was his class record holding dragster at OC Raceway in the later 1960s, & after it was a true barn-found car that he bought from the widow of the OO in 1961, & then he used it as his DD for several years.

So I do know a bit about 914s & CdEs myself. Moreover & more importantly, I've gotten to know some folks whom I consider excellent experienced & knowledgeable resources on originality & judging of 914s, Porsches & many other marques & models - including several past & present PCA Parade level judges. Therefore, I can say that my "Deepthroat" source for this information is very reliable & extremely knowledgeable about 914s & on this particular matter - unless somebody comes forth with written documentation from Porsche to the contrary. But who does not wish to weigh-in personally on the matter here. The way some members talk on here, it is preferred by them to just read & not post themselves - & frankly I don't blame them!

In the time of my recent judging & working on researching, parts sourcing & working on my most recent/current 914 restoration of my car (albeit slowly) - I've relied on a few select sources on originality for my `73 2L's resto, & this info is from one of them, & this source may just be judging your 914 at a PCA Parade or other event someday, when originality on this item may come into play for your car's scoriing (words of warning).

In my judgement, you're foolish not to heed this helpful information.

However, today 45-47 years later, there are a bunch of 914 folks not finding them on their cars, & are rightfully a bit confused as to why not, & why they see no screw mounting holes on their left or driver longitudinal. Likewise, some may see them on the right side for those UK & Commonwealth Countries with RHD, & Japan, etc. where the like to drive RHD.

Additionally, some have posted elsewhere that their 914 has them on both sides - which I suspect the passenger side would be on either an owner add-on, or an added right one from a RHD conversion 914 (just my postulation). AFAIK VW-Porsche never did factory RHD 914s, but the cars were designed/engineered to accept RHD, so some conversion companies in the RHD countries did the conversions aftermarket.

If you read the quotes from the 914 restorer & judge friend of mine below, you will see that they were a standard factory item from 1970-72 MYs on the driver's side only, & my guess or supposition is that it was done due to interference with & difficulty in retrieving from around the e-brake on the left side in LHD countries' 914s. Ergo none was deemed needed on the right or passenger side with either fixed passenger/right seat or with the space around the movable right seat (72>), if the belt dropped down in there. It was just one of the little details which VW-Porsche included in the early cars to make them easier for the owners, & became unnecessary when the retractable 3-point belts came out in the 1973 MY.

Here is the information compiled from several posts on several topics on 914world to better illustrate & define the factory supplied seat belt holder FYI - & Thanx to those members whose information was included below from their other posts on 914world.

Posted by me from my source:
"Based on a reliable source from the old days, who is far smarter than am I on these 914 details:

"The seat belt tongue holster was installed on all 914 and 914-6 models from model year 1970 to model year 1972 until 12/31/71. One per car on the driver's side with four 2.9x9.5 lens head screws to secure Factory part number is 91480314110 If you do not have one on your drivers side, your car is not correct!"

If your screws are pulling out, then they're probably either the wrong length screws &/or the carpet isn't original, since some after market carpets are a slightly deeper pile/backer material. [Edit: the factory screws were small, so often could not penetrate past the thicker loop pile carpet, as noted in the other quote below, & you may not see any hole, but only a slight dimple or nothing.]

My supposition was always since back in the 70's, that they put this "Holster" in to get it away from jamming the folding e-brake, which became unnecessary when the retractable belts came in."

Posted by Glenn S.:
"I believe the part number is 914.803.141.10
I think it was so the seat belt did not interfere with the hand brake
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-1785-1494363085.jpg) "

Also posted by me from my source:
"One more clarification for those reading here who really care about originality for their car - I would put more weight on those posting here holsters or not from the ORIGINAL OWNERS of the subject 914s - vs. 2nd, 3rd, etc. owners "looking for holes".

"Those screws were so tiny that many did not pierce the rockers but rather just went into the thick loop carpet on the cars. Only with the perlon could one ever see any penetration.""

Link to Mike Fitton's post on his NOS set of Euro 73 MY ones:
.... (My guess is that apparently they kept the non-retractable belts longer there, or else these are 73 manufactured replacements for the early 70-72 type belts with the holster.)

The NOS Holster is in the bag with teeny-tiny screws in this pic from his post linked above:
^ More photos added above as later edit for clarity on the full contents of the ealry 70-72 era seatbelt kit's contents. IMHO, the fact that the single seat belt holster & its 4 small mounting screws are packaged in the bag with the rest of the seatbelt hardware, is yet another indicator that it was a standard issue item which was - or should have been - included on all 70-72 914s within the date range noted by my 914 expert.

And from Tradisrad's 2009 topic on installing one on his 914:

Here are his pix of it loose, installed & in-use that he posted there:

And pix of the 4 screw holes & as installed on the driver side longitudinal - when they occurred -
of the holes from Paul's 70 /4 from that same topic (he's the OO):

And a sideview pic of Michael N's from the linked topic above:

Pic of another one installed by SirAndy for same topic above:

As a further indicator that it was intended for the 70-72 914s as a factory item - not a dealer accessory as some have contended, the pic clipped from a parts manual posted in post #14 below by SirAndy - it indicates the 914-6, /4 & 1.7 sub-models of the 70-72 MY era, & is similar but easier to read than the small pic of it where it's called a "holder" from Glenn S's. pic above. ----v


And if you want a headache of "screw arguments" - then you can also read on here, since there are several OOs & others posting about this era 914 with the holsters, as an FYI.

See here:

Another pic from the above topic of Paul's 70 914/4 with the seat belt holster holes location called out:


Thanx again to all from whom I've borrowed the photos & info herein.

I've culled the key info. from a Garage Forum post where they've decided to let it devolve into an argumentative search for elusive screw holes, despite several posts saying that the screws were too short to reach the steel with the thicker pile carpet.

If you're a true CW & in the interest of erring on the conservative side - I suggest that you forget looking for or worrying about screw holes now 45-47 years later, & Primarily pay attention to the OO reports of them on their own & other known 70-72 914s.

As for the judging for originality on this item - neither most local single, grouped nor multi-marque car shows, nor at the PCA's Zones' & Regions' Concours - all generally do not judge originality. ERgo, it should not matter whether or not you have a holster .... in most cases. However, if they're tie-breaking & either don't have another tie break methodology, or if their method is to look for non-original items/missing original items to break the tie - then you may be at a disadvantage without this seat belt holster on a 70-72 model - &/or with any other non-original items &/or missing items.

It will never show up on a COA, since it wasn't an option, but a standard item/feature.

Please do not devolve this topic into another "screw hole" argument! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

But if you're an original owner, or a later owner who can confirm original fitment of the driver side seatbelt holster in their 914s as originally delivered, &/or with any other info helpful on this topic for owners/restorers/competitors of these cars - then please do chime in! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)

Also, if you have factory, PCNA, PAG or other documented information which says otherwise on this being a standard feature on all 70-72 MY cars, &/or with other date limits, &/or other information for the non-USA markets around the world, then please do add that info. here in a post below as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)

Note that this sort of documentation from Porsche, PCNA, PAG, etc. by country of origin of your car, is the only type of documentation which will suffice to refute any challenge or judging deduction in those PCA Parade & other CdE's where they do judge on originality, as is a COA when it comes to optional items, colors, etc.

So it is important to force PCNA to correct any errors in their preparation of your COA if you have information to the contrary, such as a Mulroney Window Sticker (which is usually also accepted as documentation for items listed thereon).

Good Luck to you restoring/preserving/showing a 70-72 914 with this item. :first:

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Dr. 914
post May 13 2017, 11:33 AM
Post #2

Dr. 914

Group: Admin
Posts: 3,432
Joined: April 12, 2010
From: Marietta, Georgia
Member No.: 20,846

truly excellent information on an obscure subject. Just shows how enthusiastic and detailed we 914 owners all are, and the great love we have for these cars
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
post May 13 2017, 12:18 PM
Post #3

Senior Member

Group: SuperMod
Posts: 571
Joined: April 6, 2009
From: Orange CA - SoCal
Member No.: 18,200

And a few of the comments which I made as guidance on how the judging works, based upon what I've learned from other judges who have judged at PCA Parade, Pebble Beach, Amelia Island, Dana Point, La Jolla, San Marino, etc. CdE's where originality is judged (each has their own rules or work under PCA, AACA, CCCA, etc. rules)

And - NO I have not judged at that level - only in PCA Zone 8, as noted in my 1st post. So if anyone who HAS actually judged at them sees any inaccuraccies, corrections, additional info., etc. - then please do post them here!

If you haven't judged there, then please don't post pointless opinions which don't help anybody with the prearation & showing of their car!

Okay, here are some of my judging/competition & challenges related topics which I've culled form the mess at the similar 914world topic on this item....

<snipped & edited>
While screw holes are certainly contributory evidence that one was/is there - it is not conclusive evidence that they were not when missing the holes - as stated by the expert whom I quoted, the screws apparently often did not penetrate the steel longitudinal behind the carpet.

The fact that the holster & screws IS INCLUDED in the early car's non-retractable kit, is better evidence that they were in fact included or expected to be included on all 70-72 914s.

Moreover, if one were to attempt to to argue with a judge or judging team on the Concours field at a PCA Parade, Pebble Beach, Amelia Island, etc. against the deduction of points for not having one, when they take the position that it should be there as an expected original equipment item, then you would lose that challenge - unless you have specific written documentation from Porsche/PCNA/PAG on their letterhead that says to the contrary.

This is true for any originality item or issue.

YES - "Believe the expert" - & YES THEY [the judges/team & make/model specialists/experts] are the experts on that Concours field, & you must have conclusive documentation to challenge this item or anything else which they determine should be on or not on your particular make, year, model, sub-model, trim package, etc. of car!

And - yes - the other judges will defer to the superior knowledge of a particular judge/expert on a particular car's originality, when they are a better expert on it. What I have shared here is from a judge to whom I certainly would & do herein defer.

That's just the way it works, just like the main Ref deferring to the Line Judge/Asst. Ref or other Ref closer to the action in any sport!

That is [also] the way CdE judging works - just as any other competition or sport has rules & judges or referees - & their word is generally final, & can only be challenged under the competition's/sport's set rules for challenges.

Additionally - your car's score can be challenged by a competing car's owner at PCA Parade & many of the other CdEs, when a competing car has some original equipment part(s) that yours lacks &/or something not original, & it requires the same documentation to refute that it was original - or for a challenge that something is a repro part, you pull off the challenged part in question to check for a factory part number or other marking(s) proving it was original, & not a reproduction.

That latter point is critical, since so many 914 parts are now NLA, & this presents a huge challenge to 914 restorers & Concours competitors today.

While George/AA, Mark W/914Rubber, Dansk, SSI, Vredstein, etc. are filling the NLA gaps admirably with very good & often better-than-original parts - they are still subject to losing an originality challenge.

If anyone doubts this, then they should go read the PCA Parade, AACA, CCCA or whatever group the CdE event is run under Concours rules themselves - & then plan accordingly to compete per those rules, & be prepared to lose points for anything not to their standards. If you two guys &/or others want to question how it all works, then you too should read the dang rules, & not post your unfounded opinions here.

ADDED EDIT: Also, don't assume that just because something is not caught at one or more CdEs - that it can't & won't be caught at another. This is because the judges/team generally have limited time to judge each car, & generally focus on a few areas on each car to meet the time limit - so they may either just not have looked at it, or not caught it/missed something that time around.

IMHO any competitor should read & fully understand the rules anyway, & I recommend that any series CW actually go to the same or a similar CdE by the same sponsoring organization CdE - as what they wish to enter - in order to see & clearly understand how it all works: to follow the judges around & see how they judge a similar or close car, & to talk with the judges before or after their judging period (where they allow it - PCA Zones/Regions generally do, maybe at Parade if outside the judging period).

Many PCA Zones/Regions also run Concours Prep schools for their local &/or national Parade Concours, which you will find very helpful in both understanding how the judging works, & how to prepare your cars.

PCA Parade also runs a Tech Quiz Competition for folks who like to test their knowledge of Porsche minutia, where the same types of judging/scoring & challenge rules would apply FYI.

A note of caution to those reading here that are serious CdE competitors - please keep in mind that the judges, timers, committee & staff putting on the Concours are all volunteers taking up their personal time to prepare, qualify & be there - just so you can have fun & compete at the show.

So please DO treat them respectfully & politely, shake their hands & thank them for their work, & listen to or read any of their comments on judging your car, so that you can take steps to improve it next time.

Certainly never be rude, angry, argumentative, etc. with the judges & staff. Just take deep breaths & go with the flow! .... and smile! ;-)

An additional note of caution to those reading here who are serious CdE competitors - The types of somewhat nasty comments by [the people arguing the whether or not the holster/holder was standard factory equipment on the similar 914world topics], in challenging the judge/restoration expert in question about whether these - or any other items - were original factory equipment, would not go over well at all!!

At the very least - the judge could give you the maximum deduction, rather than lesser or minimum deduction allowed for the item(s) in question - since by [arguing] thus, yourself proving that you know it was possibly required - & screwing your own self on your score!

And at the worst - you could be ejected from the event &/or your car eliminated & disqualified from the competition - then all of your time, effort & expense in preparing your car is down the toilet! You could also get yourself permanently banned or suspended for an extended period, if you're especially nasty with the judges!

I've seen it happen & it is not pleasant!

No judge wants a headache from your haranguing them!

Just treat others in the way in which YOU want to be treated, & you'll be okay!

And while we do not judge originality at most/all PCA Zone & Region level Concours, we do judge the preparation, detailing & cleanliness of your P-cars. So while this item would not be deducted if [it were] not there - but if it is installed - then make sure that it's clean & all screws are there & in tight, etc.

If we see 1 or more screws missing or hanging loose or backed out more than a smidge, or dirt on it or in the inside of the slot - then you'll probably lose points if the Interior Judge sees that. And note that in Zone 8 we judge interiors at all levels, from Wash & Shine Div. (Exterior & Interior) - through Street & Preservation Divs. (Exterior, Interior, Storage & Engine) - up to Full Concours Div. (Exterior, Interior, Storage, Engine, & Undercarriage (Belly/Underside) With & Without Engine).

And do NOT argue that you don't think you should have to clean it, or it was clean before, you had all screws before, or whatever else you think it should be done about the judging. the judges have to take judging school before they can judge, & - yes - they can make mistakes, but it's not your job to harass them about it. Just ASK the team's head judge about the instance, & let them either clarify or rectify it for you.

Likewise for our shows, if you were to argue with a judge over those preparation type deductions in the same manner as noted above regarding originality arguments, then you could suffer the same disqualification or ejection consequences. So be NICE!

Beyond that - to explain why or why not a particular 914 isn't showing signs of it now almost half a century later having had a seat belt holster - personally I really don't care - REALLY! Because if someone shows up in front of my source judge/restorer on this item with a 70-72 914 - or any other judge who knows this tiny detail - at Pebble Beach, Amelia, PCA Parade, etc. where originality is judged - then they'll probably or possibly be marked down for not having it - period, end of story!.

[Frankly,] I never even looked at this topic when it first came up on the [914world] Garage Forum a few days ago, since it did NOT apply to my [1973] 914 - not at all!

Then my judge/restorer buddy sent me an email about the correct info in his expertise on early 914s, which answered the original question of the OP on the other Garage Forum, as well as for those looking to compete in Concours where originality is judged.

So I decided to share with the OP & the membership there [& now here on 914club] - that information from a source whom not only do I trust implicitly, but who is also respected by other judges at far higher levels than I for 914 expertise, & whose opinion on this item would indeed stand at any event in which that judge/restorer were judging or consulted on the matter. PERIOD!

[I also recommend that any serious CdE entrants] go to a PCA Concours in your areas, talk to the judges & follow them around, ask if anyone there has judged at PCA Parade, & then ask that Parade judge all the questions you want about how it works & what is judged, & whether or not a known Porsche model's expert opinion would stand on an item like this, or any other originality issue/item, with the rest of the judging team.

[While interesting for discussion off the Concours Field - any listings of 914s with or without the holder/holster,] "no screw holes" arguments & pix, [nor any other circumstantial "evidence" today from almost half a century later from when manufactured, or even if you are the original owner & never had one - any/all] - are just NOT going to sway any judge who takes the position that they should be there - period & exclamation point! [Attempting to argue such with a judge/team] may only get competitors into trouble & lose points - because they then go off saying to a judge something like: "Well [So-n-so#1 who 'owns' a a bunch of 914s/shop/store/website/etc. &/or so-n-so-#2] who restores them, & a bunch of other guys [I know] say they don't have it either said so, since they don't all have screw holes!"

If nothing else, the fact that the holster (one only) is included in the early NOS non-retractable seat belt kit from the factory, & that there appear to be far more 70-72 914 owners chiming in that they have or had them - especially the original owners - & the expert opinion of another highly respected & long term since day one of the 914's run says that they were - [always on the Concours field] trumps any screw holes[, lists, other folks' opinions (unless a recognized by the judge/team/expert), etc.] arguments.

Then again in reality too - somebody may go to great lengths to keep or find & (re-)place [a holster/holder &/or any other originality item], & then never get it judged one way or another at Parade or any other originality based Concours! That's just the luck of the draw.
<end snip>

.... & from my other post on judging & Parade/etc. Concours ....

<snipped & edited>
Some notes for those actually preparing their 70-72 914s for Parade in Spokane....

For those of you who are the 10-20% who are serious Concours competitors & reading [my long posts], the info. from my nationally rated judge "is what it i" -, & trying to explain at Parade why you should not have a points deduction because of no screw holes or due to a survey of 914s today [(almost 50 years after production)] is unlikely to change their mind.

Whether right or wrong - that is the position of the judges, that they should have the holster/holder - so you're best served to present your 70-72 914-6 or /4 with it, or have the possibility or probability that you'll be gigged - regardless of what the "Master Debaters" are saying.

Remember that at Parade, the judges work as a team, & confer with each other on the details of all judged areas (in Zone 8 & it's Regions, we each take an area - interior or whatever, but cannot confer with each other) - so if one knows about this item or any other originality issue, then they will all know - & you will be scored accordingly.

While the chart of which cars have the holes &/or holster may be interesting to those of you with that era 914, it is not one of the means of challenge accepted by PCA rules, when a Model Specialist/Judge determines that something should or should not be on a particular car/era - only Porsche documentation works.

However - I just have to giggle at all this nonsense [on the 914world topics on this matter], because now the behavior on [there] by a few [individuals] has now elevated this issue & [the seatbelt holder/holster] part to the attention of a number of other judges who are looking at this thread! Ergo, my warning above to the "Real CWs" that I doubt that it won't be a topic at the upcoming Parade in Spokane!

This inane attempt by a couple of people [on 914world] to try to discredit ... 3rd party judging & originality info which I was relaying in good faith to help my fellow CW members - has also given all of us [914ers] a bad reputation in the eyes of these judges/experts, as noted in the quote below!

Here's what my [judge/restoration/914-expert] source had to say about all of [that idiocy on 914world], as well as to have picked out another originality detail on the seat bolts, [of] which [some CW] may care about too. The quotations which I've posted from this 914 expert should tell even a casual observer that they know 914s well!

Here are the latest further commentary & clarifications from my 914 expert:

"wow those guys are nuts. The one picture you show has the wrong bolts (they should be hex not allen) screwing in the seat rack, but the seat belt holster issue is what it is, factory parts in the factory parts book, one required, all usa cars model year 70 to model year 72 through 12/31/71. Jan 72 went to retractible belts. Who knows maybe on the assembly line they forgot a few cars, and the screws are certainly short enough that they would not have pierced thick loop carpet offered on the 70 -72 fours with appearance group and the 71-72 sixes without a lot of help and drilling like the guys said. Obviously installed after the carpet was installed, no one is going to drill into the carpet at the factory as it would cause carpet damage, so either predrilled or forgotten"

Do [those] folks really want to be known in the Concours community as "nuts"!?

Good Luck to the CWs! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
<end snip>

... again ....

GLWT-CdE! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
post May 13 2017, 12:25 PM
Post #4

Senior Member

Group: SuperMod
Posts: 571
Joined: April 6, 2009
From: Orange CA - SoCal
Member No.: 18,200

QUOTE (Dr. 914 @ May 13 2017, 08:33 AM) *
truly excellent information on an obscure subject. Just shows how enthusiastic and detailed we 914 owners all are, and the great love we have for these cars

Thanx George, but I can't take credit for it, since I only relayed another better expert's opinion, & compiled photos & other info from other posts by other 914world members with this item. I basically served as an "editor" or "publisher" of info from other people.

I am truly a neophyte on this issue, but try to do this level of research & care for my 73 914 2L's resto.

However, I'd ask that you please review the judging & related info in my 2nd big post above (#3), based on your experience & expertise with Parade, local PCA & other CdE's, & please do add any corrections or additions!

I also trust that you & your staff will keep this topic as a clean & helpful topic, & not allow the types of negative commentary to which the similar 914world ones have degenerated! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif)

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:


RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: August 19, 2019 - 08:54 PM