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914club.com _ The Paddock _ hewland MK5 in a rhino box

Posted by: vitis May 1 2008, 06:56 PM

I saw Blake was on this board so I was wondering how his project of stuffing the innards of a Hewland in a rhino box were going. I'm real interested in trying it but will have to wait for this winter.

Milt McPherson

Posted by: bam914 May 1 2008, 09:15 PM

I have a Mark 9 and it is for sale. The new engine for the car will destroy the transmission. I have been looking for Mark 5 parts but keep coming up short. Even with those parts I still do not think it will hold up. I have plenty of 901's and they are cheaper to replace.

Posted by: vitis May 1 2008, 09:29 PM

Blake,

I've been trying to find a LD200 but they are hard to find also (used). I did find a website (www.apexspeed.com) that will occasionally have some parts but I'm starting to think like you that I'll probably stick with the 901. It sure would be nice if it was easier to change gears. I'll probably have 3-4 trannys sitting around for the different tracks.


Milt

Posted by: bam914 May 1 2008, 09:35 PM

I only had to change my gears for one track down here in the SE and that was for Lowes motorspeedway. I put a taller 5th in. Since they never run nationals there I do not have to worry about.

Posted by: vitis May 1 2008, 09:45 PM

I figured Road Atlanta would be one of the difficult ones to gear. Probably similar to our VIR. But I figure Roebling and CMP will need a lower 5th at least. The Road Atlanta box would probably work for Summit Point also. Just figured each would have their own need for the best gearing.


Milt

Posted by: Racer Chris May 2 2008, 09:29 AM

QUOTE
I have a Mark 9 and it is for sale. The new engine for the car will destroy the transmission. I have been looking for Mark 5 parts but keep coming up short. Even with those parts I still do not think it will hold up. I have plenty of 901's and they are cheaper to replace.

I haven't given up on the idea of buying your box Blake, but I would want to upgrade to 5 speed, Mk 5 parts, Rhino case, etc.
Right now, good dog box transaxles are hard to find. My teammate looked into becoming a Webster dealer, and checked the price from Taylor for a ready to use box... way too much $$$$.
Maybe you would be interested in a trade for a 1 3/4" header.

Posted by: Thorshammer May 3 2008, 09:54 AM

Blake,


You an I agree on most everything, but I have to call BS on this one. I know you and Jake and Len are great engine builders, but you have limited chance of hurting a Mark IX with what we are doing. I have run that trans hard behind my six, which has really good torque, and I haven't been able to hurt the gearbox at all, and other people are running them. For you, at the tracks you are going to run I understand the gearing point, for us in the Northeast, and the Mid Atlantic states, changing gears must be done. On that portion alone, I would estimate to run a proper program here in the Northeast, you will need 8-10 different gears. To be geared properly, With a cost of 300-600 each set, I can see a minimum of 3600 if you want to run correctly here in the NE div, I am not sure about Mid Atlantic, but some people will run a gearbox, and not think it is worth the effort to change the gears, trust me, lap times come from many things, gearing is the one thing that racers think of last, and their lap times suffer. When you have perfect rpm drops and you have designed a set of gear ratios to be perfect, you will have lower lap times, keeping the engine in the power all the time is the right way, being slightly off the power in a couple coners makes you go slower. Most of us know this, so if you can get the right gearing with 901 then use it. Getting the gearing right is only part of the battle. Anyone who has shifted a Hewland understands a 901 will NEVER shift like a Hewland, there is no way possible even the best syncro trans will shift as quickly as a dog ring trans. NO WAY.

For me the choice was easy, quick shifts, cheap gears, most gearsets are less than 175.00 and plenty are out there used.

If you are racing a 914 and the anticipated power is under 230, Hewland is your only choice.


Erik

Posted by: bam914 May 3 2008, 10:04 AM

I have decided not to run GTL anymore and have decided to run GT3 with a 2.0L 4cyl. We are hoping to be me in the 220 hp range with the engine. I am still wavering back and forth on it. I have seen that Pegasus sells a strong MK9 gear. Are they worth the money?

Posted by: vitis May 4 2008, 10:04 AM

Thanks to Erik, Blake and Chris for keeping this thread going. I had to be gone a couple of days to get one son graduated from college. Now a few more nickels for racing.
Erik, you mentioned the MK 9 box as being fine for the 4 cyl, is it better to use the MK 5, 9or LD200 or does it matter? I would like to get parts located so I can make the tranny my winter project.

Milt

Posted by: Thorshammer May 4 2008, 05:32 PM

Blake,

Don't waver, hold the project until you can do the Hewland, it really is that much of a difference.

Vitis,

The Hewland came in several conigurations. Everyone says you must have MK V gears if you use it is a 914, I run a 2.0 six in SCCA. and use all MK 9 gearsets, but I don't shift it without the clutch, although I probably could. I think there is now reason to shift it without the clutch, it shifts very fast, and the selection of gears are relatively inexpensive and plentiful. Taylor says you must use them, but I have not found the need. The LD will take a custome bellhousing, if you get a formula Mazda the shifter is in the right spot, and the run to the shifter is easy.

The photos I have included are of my install. I added a bar across the back of the engine compartment, and hung the back of the engine from a .380 aluminum plate, The plate had a step machined on both sides to locate the transmission, The plate started out as a .750 aluminum plate. Its cost was about 300.00. The plate is essential in locaqting the trans. My car has no mounts aft of the plate, the gearbox just hangs there. I figured if they could hang wings on a formula car, and the weight of the gearbox, I culd allow it to hang. No issues since 2005. Others have made mounts for the rear, but I don't feel it is necessary.

My set up is a Old Supervee system, with what is called "monkey motion" The formula Mazda shift mechanism is relatively in the same position. The shift box was very easy to fabricate, and I did not make the shift motion small, as I like to move the lever a ways. You could alter it's throw pretty easily. I would change the joints I used, and use steering joints, as I feel the apex joints may have a little play. I do not find it objectionable.

The axles are easy, the come from Dans VW, and they are cheap. He sells uprated CV joints which have bigger balls, The whole axle thing will cost you about 400.00 with bolts. You will still need to add a teflon buffer to the end of the axles to prevent axle float, easy to do.

The clutch is another issue. I used a annular release bearing and engineered a holder that goes onto the trans. It works well, has good feel, and is easy to bleed, I should have added a quick disconnect coupler for the hydraulic line.

Use only Swepco, and make sure you have the correct level set in the gearbox. The rear shift shaft does not seal well, and they weep a little bit of fluid all the time. Send the casing to RIC racing and ask Rick to install a rear shaft seal, no more leaks.....

Contact me if you need any other information. BTW, Ed Givler also runs the same trans in his gearbox, with the same gears.


Erik

Posted by: Brett W May 5 2008, 12:26 AM

Blake I love your enthusiasm, but GT3 with a 914 is not going to happen. the Toyotas, Nissans and Mazdas are making much more power than that. Toyota is closer to 300 and they have the drivetrain and chassis to go with that power level. Plus the Toyota and Mazda SCCA investment division will assure that Porsche never get a break anywhere.

Posted by: bam914 May 5 2008, 08:21 AM

We will see. At this point I just want to go have fun.

Posted by: vitis May 5 2008, 08:28 AM

Thanks Erik. That was great information and pictures. I should not have a problem fabricating the supports with those pictures. I may ask you for help if I find parts since I typically buy something and then find out it won't work. Really frustrates the wife. I don't know if I mentioned but we are running F production with a 1.8 liter so we will probably be in the 180-200 HP range.

Hey, since you are getting out of the racing thing, are you going to part with your tranny?

Milt

Posted by: Brett W May 5 2008, 09:28 AM

NOw that I can agree with. Just getting out on track for some racing is most important. How about running a 2.0 six or building the car like a IMSA replica and running in HSR? Or just go big and run in GT2. Finch and I both believe you can win with a properly developed 914-6 in GT2.

By the way, I forgot to holler at you while I was over there. What road did you used to live on when you lived in Canton? I have a friend that lives in Middlebrooke of Stringer Rd and I was running around that area and the houses looked real similar to what I remember your old place did, back in the day.

Posted by: bam914 May 5 2008, 12:00 PM

No more 6 cylinders for me.

I moved from that house about 10 years ago.

Posted by: Thorshammer May 5 2008, 12:09 PM

Blake,


Was it the SIR that was holding you back in GTL?

Vitis, I think you will have little issue. The trans may have been spoken for, but I have no money commitment yet. Edgetoo (on this forum) has done the swap successfully, as have I, I would suggest concentrating on the lightest flywheel you can get your hands on with a 4.5 twin disc clutch. I can steer you to the guy that made me the plate, and you can use an annular release bearing (hydraulic). That stuff is pretty easy to do.

Boy wouldn't it be great if we could put Hewland gearsets and shafts into a 901/914 side shift, yeeehaw. That would end the fitment, the mounting, the axles, the release bearing, the shift tower HMMM....



Erik

Posted by: HAM Inc May 5 2008, 02:24 PM

Eric I hate like hell that your getting out of the 914. What will you race next? Perhaps there is a circle track in your neck of the woods with a class to your liking. One of the things I miss about circle track racing is the payoff window.

Posted by: bam914 May 5 2008, 06:13 PM

Eric

Never even got to the SIR. There was no way I was going to make the HP need. Plus I really did not want to spend the time doing cam and intake changes needed to find the most HP. Now Jake, Len and I can just build the ultimate 2.0L. I have made a couple of request for some additional things.

Posted by: Thorshammer May 5 2008, 06:23 PM

Len,

The car is only going under the right condition. Condition not right, no sell. I would like to keep it. But have yet to secure sponsorship to be able to run it. I guess I got spoiled with the time I had on my hands before the second child came along, but I would and will trade racing for them, I am sure you guys understand. I was thinking how close the car is too. Now it just got a 50lbs weight break. Yeehaw.

Erik

Posted by: Jake Raby May 5 2008, 07:09 PM

QUOTE
Blake I love your enthusiasm, but GT3 with a 914 is not going to happen.

The best way to make any of us do things that we normally would not have the enthusiasm to do is to tell us tjhat it either can't be done, or that its "Stupid"..

I was glad to hear that Blake wanted to run GT3..
Remember- we like to be the under dog.. If not I'd be doing the same shit everyone else is.

Posted by: vitis May 5 2008, 07:25 PM

Well Erik. If you end up not selling the hewland, let me know. If not I might try to lean on Blake to get his MK 9 parts. I got the impression that the hewland gear sets would fit in a rhino box. Is that possible? That should make the conversion pretty easy.

Erik, just wait until the kids grow up. I used to race SCCA when I was a kid in the 70s and gave it up for career and family. Now one of my sons is in auto engineering and he got the racing gene. He's the driver and I get to crew for him. I must say that it has been some of the most enjoyable time I have spent (except it was a bummer when we broke the motor).


Milt

Posted by: Brett W May 5 2008, 11:35 PM

Good luck out there.

Posted by: Thorshammer May 5 2008, 11:57 PM

The Rhino case is a very good case to start with, It is a little stronger (I don't have one, Ed Givler does) and all MK 9 or MK 5 gears will fit, with some clearancing..... There is a small amount a machining that a decent machinist can do. Special Jigs are available for the gearsets, and the HEwland book is very good. For Hewland stuff I use Rick Hiland at RIC Racing in Bow, NH. He's fair and his work is very good.

Oh, and we just started my oldest (6) in go karts, he finished 2nd the first time out and I didn't know I needed to remove the intake restrictor.



Erik

Posted by: HAM Inc May 6 2008, 09:01 AM

Erik I'm glad you have your priorities right. Definitley kids before racing. If I had kids the only racing I could do would be circle track, as I can make money doing that. If I had been doing nothing but road racing for the last 29 years I'd be very excited about trying my hand at circle track, but as it is I am really digging the new challenges of road racing. It's been a long time since I felt like a rookie!

It sounds like your oldest might be ready for the 914 in about ten years, so you might as well hang onto it anyway! Hopefully someone will get behind you at some point so you can run the car yourself in the meantime. I'd hate to see you have to park it after getting so close.

Posted by: Racer Chris May 6 2008, 09:52 AM

QUOTE
I'd hate to see you have to park it after getting so close.

agree.gif Not to mention the alternative - zoom zoom. icon8.gif

Posted by: Rick Iverson May 1 2013, 07:28 AM

QUOTE (bam914 @ May 1 2008, 08:15 PM) *
I have a Mark 9 and it is for sale. The new engine for the car will destroy the transmission. I have been looking for Mark 5 parts but keep coming up short. Even with those parts I still do not think it will hold up. I have plenty of 901's and they are cheaper to replace.


Still have the gearbox for sale? If so, email at msengineering@q.com

V/R

Iverson

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