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> concours judging, factory vs aftermarket
Dr. 914
post Apr 5 2011, 10:59 AM
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I was lamenting of the lack of original parts for our concours restorations, thinking that maybe never in the future would I be able to restore a 914 to its exact factory look and feel.
My question here is if there were two identical concours entries, and say, one had aftermarket carpeting and the other factory carpeting, should the guy with the aftermarketing carpeting be pecked because of it? We all know that factory carpeting has long been discontinued, and although there are many aftermarket carpet kits that look acceptable, there is no substitute for the factory. If the answer is yes the guy with aftermarket should be pecked, then would that not spoil the spirit of the competition and discourage people from entering?
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Tom_T
post Apr 5 2011, 03:05 PM
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I agree, as well as for period correct original parts offered by the dealers back in the day!
... but then I'm not one of the vaunted PCA CW Gurus making the rules! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif)

On a similar note, when I talked with the PCA's CdE chair last year abut the total lack of any OE correct 165HR15 Tubeless tires for my 73 2L, he said that 195/65HR15s as recco'd by the factory or any other 156R15 would be acceptable - so go figure!!?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)
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Pat Garvey
post Apr 6 2011, 10:23 PM
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Let's suppose the following scenario:

Car #1: nicely done restoration, with original carpets that show some slight wear, but no dirt (believe me, it can be done).
Car #2: nicely done resto, but with high grade aftermarket carpets.

First, I don't think that most PCA (or other) judges would be able to detect the difference between the carpeting, because there are a couple of companies out there who have become really good at retro-fitting 914 carpet(as well as early 911 carpet). From the samples that I've seen, they're really good. I also think that so many years have gone down that many exceptional judges would be able to remember the piles of the original.

So I find this a conundrum. In my scenario, both cars have been restored. One with original carpets showing minor wear, another with excellent resto carpets that mimic original.

Now, in typical judging time limits, I would have 5 to7 minutes to decide this situation, as well as many other interior issues, so my response would be to gig the one with original carpeting. These are restored cars, so they should be restored by any means. And parts are out there to do this.

I make these comments based on the PCR's. I don't like them, but those are the rules.

"original", in PCR terms means that (as I recall) 90% of the car has to have its original finish. The interior must be original, as well as all lights, etc. So, if the car has been in an accident sometime in its 35-40 year existence, you're probably considered "restored". However, the panels repainted include the underside of the lids, engine bay, F&R trunks & belly, so there is so wiggly room for the term "restored".

Now, if I were looking at Georges scenario, I'd suggest the Preservation class for PCA events. Then, on the day of judging, I'd look very closely at the carpets of my best competitor while it was being judged (never touch the competetor's car). If I had ANY thoughts that the car wasn't carrying "original" carpeting I'd make a note of it & wait for final judging results. Then, if I were certain that the carpet was aftermarket and that I were less than 1 point away from beating the other car, I'd file a protest. Then, await the results. Protests are cheap if you feel you're in the right.
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Tom_T
post Apr 6 2011, 11:22 PM
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Interesting scenario Pat, particularly for me trying to resto a 73 with the NLA #503 Dark Tan carpet (tan & brown speckled) that the aftermarket pile carpets don't match, as with my NLA #31 Beige interior with #501/502 Basketweave/Smooth Leathertte upholstery - restore/repair & rejuvenate, or pull it all out & redo with an as close as possible match of aftermarket stuff - lighter tan on upholstery, differing basketweave & darker carpet (I even have the samples from World Upholstery).

A conundrum to say the least, but I'm still leaning more towards fixing up with OEM materials as much as possible & give it a go!

Steve's comment to me when I visited him last Fall that he got gigged at Parade for insufficient wear on a car of the age (or something like that) still rings in my ears - but Sahara Beige is preservation, while mine will definitely be preservation.

Still, I'd like to keep as much of the old gal as I can.

BTW - I like the period pic of Fritz in your Avatar! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)
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Pat Garvey
post Apr 7 2011, 06:03 PM
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Attached Image
[attachment=15056
9:89Parade01.jpg][attachme
nt=150569:89Parade01.jpg]
QUOTE (Tom_T @ Apr 7 2011, 01:22 AM) *
Interesting scenario Pat, particularly for me trying to resto a 73 with the NLA #503 Dark Tan carpet (tan & brown speckled) that the aftermarket pile carpets don't match, as with my NLA #31 Beige interior with #501/502 Basketweave/Smooth Leathertte upholstery - restore/repair & rejuvenate, or pull it all out & redo with an as close as possible match of aftermarket stuff - lighter tan on upholstery, differing basketweave & darker carpet (I even have the samples from World Upholstery).

A conundrum to say the least, but I'm still leaning more towards fixing up with OEM materials as much as possible & give it a go!

Steve's comment to me when I visited him last Fall that he got gigged at Parade for insufficient wear on a car of the age (or something like that) still rings in my ears - but Sahara Beige is preservation, while mine will definitely be preservation.

Still, I'd like to keep as much of the old gal as I can.

BTW - I like the period pic of Fritz in your Avatar! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)


Tom,
That is a "cartoonerized" pic of the attached.

It was the '89 Parade in Michigan. I scored higher than ever before but was killed by my choice of wheels & tires (which I left on to autocross - bad decision!). I also had one judge, a supposed 914 expert, question me on having chromed inside door handle covers on a '72. Wouldn't believe me, and I almost protested but that was bad form. Interior judge gigged me for having new carpets, though he believed they were Porsche correct - another thought about protesting. In the end, I lost by 1.5 points, and it was mostly because of the tire/wheel combination. I would mention that the guy who beat me, Cole Scrogham, had an original 914 that had rust stains in the trunk. However, my master vylinder crapped out on prep day and he lent me a new one. He would probably never do that today - he's moved on to concouring brand new cars (what!?) for some time now, and wins!

My beef was not with the judge who gigged my wheels & tires 5(!) points. It was with the so-called experts who didn't know 914 iterations, and cleanliness. This loss still beats me up today!
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Attached Image

 
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Pat Garvey
post Apr 7 2011, 06:04 PM
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QUOTE (Pat Garvey @ Apr 7 2011, 08:03 PM) *

Attached Image
[attachment=1505
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QUOTE
Interesting scenario Pat, particularly for me trying to resto a 73 with the NLA #503 Dark Tan carpet (tan & brown speckled) that the aftermarket pile carpets don't match, as with my NLA #31 Beige interior with #501/502 Basketweave/Smooth Leathertte upholstery - restore/repair & rejuvenate, or pull it all out & redo with an as close as possible match of aftermarket stuff - lighter tan on upholstery, differing basketweave & darker carpet (I even have the samples from World Upholstery).

A conundrum to say the least, but I'm still leaning more towards fixing up with OEM materials as much as possible & give it a go!

Steve's comment to me when I visited him last Fall that he got gigged at Parade for insufficient wear on a car of the age (or something like that) still rings in my ears - but Sahara Beige is preservation, while mine will definitely be preservation.

Still, I'd like to keep as much of the old gal as I can.

BTW - I like the period pic of Fritz in your Avatar! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)


Tom,
That is a "cartoonerized" pic of the attached.

It was the '89 Parade in Michigan. I scored higher than ever before but was killed by my choice of wheels & tires (which I left on to autocross - bad decision!). I also had one judge, a supposed 914 expert, question me on having chromed inside door handle covers on a '72. Wouldn't believe me, and I almost protested but that was bad form. Interior judge gigged me for having new carpets, though he believed they were Porsche correct - another thought about protesting. In the end, I lost by 1.5 points, and it was mostly because of the tire/wheel combination. I would mention that the guy who beat me, Cole Scrogham, had an original 914 that had rust stains in the trunk. However, my master vylinder crapped out on prep day and he lent me a new one. He would probably never do that today - he's moved on to concouring brand new cars (what!?) for some time now, and wins!

My beef was not with the judge who gigged my wheels & tires 5(!) points. It was with the so-called experts who didn't know 914 iterations, and cleanliness. This loss still beats me up today!

Ooops, sorry - I stuttered!
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Tom_T
post Apr 8 2011, 01:09 AM
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Geez Pat, those interior gigs & no gig on rust stained carpet sucks, but it sounds like it wasn't enough to get past the wheel/tire choice. Just added Fritz to my pix on Red 914s, along with my buddy's Red 71 1.7!

You do have the correct Porsche chrome wheels now I assume, and some XZX 165SR15s will fit it to a Tee!
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Pat Garvey
post Apr 8 2011, 06:45 PM
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QUOTE (Tom_T @ Apr 8 2011, 03:09 AM) *
Geez Pat, those interior gigs & no gig on rust stained carpet sucks, but it sounds like it wasn't enough to get past the wheel/tire choice. Just added Fritz to my pix on Red 914s, along with my buddy's Red 71 1.7!

You do have the correct Porsche chrome wheels now I assume, and some XZX 165SR15s will fit it to a Tee!

Tom, the chrome wheels were never a Factory part. Dealer add-on. And yes, I will probably mount them again, though I have restored steelies. I just like the look & will take my lumps. In the pics that I mistakenly sent too many times the tires were Yoko A008R's. Fabulous auto-x tire of the period. If I could get them again, I would use them. Unfortunately, I mounted them on my 73T that I sold to Ferg. Won't accept XWX's. Too hard & poor performers today. XZX's maybe, but I'd really like some Pirelli CN36's (which are mounted on my steelies, but approaching 30 years of age. I'd also take some of those Dunlops, or maybe some Pirelli P6's. Tires are the least of my problem right now. Fuel system needs to be completely redone. Have almost all parts needed, but George will get a nice order for fuel & vac lines, as well as injector boots (not looking foward to that one).

Fritz WILL hit road this year. I'm determined, my wife is griping at me, and I miss driving the car.
Pat
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smg914
post Apr 8 2011, 11:10 PM
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I would assume that the availability of NOS carpet for the 356 is long gone. That said, almost every 356 restoration I've seen, the carpet looks as if it's original. Maybe it has something to do with the type of carpet that was used in the 356 that makes it easy to duplicate. George, you probably know the answer to this.

There is still quite a nice selection of NOS 914 carpet in the AA lost warehouse. I know it's pretty expensive but I would say to the 914 owner that is serious about originality, "Get it while you can". Most of the time, aftermarket carpet in a 914 stands out like a sore thumb to me. Sometimes the carpet looks ok but then the vinyl border is usually the wrong color and once again......"sore thumb"

One other thing that seems to be an easy short-cut when restoring a 356........the wheel wells are always either painted black or undercoated black. That's not fair (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pinch.gif) . It's significantly more difficult to preserve the original factory painted body color wheel wells on a 914. All a 356 owner has to do is clean the wheel well and get out the spray can....pisssst...."It's concours again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap56.gif) "

None of this of course is a real problem until your 914 wins it's division and it goes up against the 356 division winner. Advantage 356
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pete000
post Apr 9 2011, 02:33 AM
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As for local Concours PCA events here in PCA Zone 8 they only look for dirt and sometimes, but rarely a ding or chip. Originality is not a factor at all. I have been Judging for a while now and we only give tenths of a point off for a deduction. Most wins are determined by only a few tenths.
I have entered two Parades with my 911 and it seems to be a whole different game than region events.
Not sure how other regions of the PCA judge.
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Tom_T
post Apr 9 2011, 04:08 PM
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QUOTE (pete000 @ Apr 8 2011, 11:33 PM) *
As for local Concours PCA events here in PCA Zone 8 they only look for dirt and sometimes, but rarely a ding or chip. Originality is not a factor at all. I have been Judging for a while now and we only give tenths of a point off for a deduction. Most wins are determined by only a few tenths.
I have entered two Parades with my 911 and it seems to be a whole different game than region events.
Not sure how other regions of the PCA judge.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

I took the OCR's Concours Judging Course last march `10 hoping to get tips on originality for my resto, and found too it's mostly a cleaning & waxing competition until you get to Parade or sometimes at Zone for 2 close Pcars.
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Tom_T
post Apr 9 2011, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE (Pat Garvey @ Apr 8 2011, 03:45 PM) *
QUOTE
Geez Pat, those interior gigs & no gig on rust stained carpet sucks, but it sounds like it wasn't enough to get past the wheel/tire choice. Just added Fritz to my pix on Red 914s, along with my buddy's Red 71 1.7!

You do have the correct Porsche chrome wheels now I assume, and some XZX 165SR15s will fit it to a Tee!

Tom, the chrome wheels were never a Factory part. Dealer add-on. And yes, I will probably mount them again, though I have restored steelies. I just like the look & will take my lumps. In the pics that I mistakenly sent too many times the tires were Yoko A008R's. Fabulous auto-x tire of the period. If I could get them again, I would use them. Unfortunately, I mounted them on my 73T that I sold to Ferg. Won't accept XWX's. Too hard & poor performers today. XZX's maybe, but I'd really like some Pirelli CN36's (which are mounted on my steelies, but approaching 30 years of age. I'd also take some of those Dunlops, or maybe some Pirelli P6's. Tires are the least of my problem right now. Fuel system needs to be completely redone. Have almost all parts needed, but George will get a nice order for fuel & vac lines, as well as injector boots (not looking foward to that one).

Fritz WILL hit road this year. I'm determined, my wife is griping at me, and I miss driving the car.
Pat


Hmmm, I thought Porsche sold 15x5.5 Chrome Steel Wheels for the 911/912 line, so why wouldn't that be considered original for a 914 if you optioned it from the dealer?

Oooops, there we go again with that "Polish-Logic" of PCR (HP calculator users will know what I mean by P-L - it's bass-ackwards).

Pat - I'm pretty sure that Lucas in Ohio & Long Beach CA sells the CN36 in your size 165SR15 (check the Longstone link below), but IIRC they're tube type as well. Also, I think I misspoke before - they sell XZX 165SR15, but it shows up on the Longstone trie website, which Lucas is their USA affiliate or subsidiary & can order any tires from them via UK -
http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/search?sea...p;x=85&y=13

Sounds like you'll be on the road before me!
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Tom_T
post Apr 9 2011, 04:35 PM
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QUOTE
I would assume that the availability of NOS carpet for the 356 is long gone. That said, almost every 356 restoration I've seen, the carpet looks as if it's original. Maybe it has something to do with the type of carpet that was used in the 356 that makes it easy to duplicate. George, you probably know the answer to this.

There is still quite a nice selection of NOS 914 carpet in the AA lost warehouse. I know it's pretty expensive but I would say to the 914 owner that is serious about originality, "Get it while you can". Most of the time, aftermarket carpet in a 914 stands out like a sore thumb to me. Sometimes the carpet looks ok but then the vinyl border is usually the wrong color and once again......"sore thumb"

One other thing that seems to be an easy short-cut when restoring a 356........the wheel wells are always either painted black or undercoated black. That's not fair (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pinch.gif) . It's significantly more difficult to preserve the original factory painted body color wheel wells on a 914. All a 356 owner has to do is clean the wheel well and get out the spray can....pisssst...."It's concours again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap56.gif) "

None of this of course is a real problem until your 914 wins it's division and it goes up against the 356 division winner. Advantage 356


Steve, when George checked for me last year, all he could find in my color was a passenger floor piece which I got - so I don't think he has anymore & I'd asked about a full kit or any pieces, but he offered to let me scour the attic whenever I can go back there & have some time. I'd have asked you when you did the -6 interior swap if I'd known you were there & you'd have a fat commission.

I still need a driver's mat in that #503 Dark Tan, since the DAPO had gone cheap with grey L&R floor pieces, over which I had tan coco mats back in the day - it being my DD/only car & no time to dally in the CW world. I'm trying to get it back to as when new condition with everything "missing" by DAPO or DA dealer changes/theft back into it & on it.

Personally I like the look of the 914 with the blackout wheel wells & underside, plus liking rock chip protection it affords. Just different tastes I guess, but don't know if I'll ultimately get gigged for it.

PS - are you set with that NOS fuel pump in Sahara now - all working & all?? If not, I'll be in GA at the end of the month & can bring mine for lend-lease.
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Pat Garvey
post Apr 9 2011, 05:46 PM
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QUOTE (Tom_T @ Apr 9 2011, 05:26 PM) *
QUOTE
QUOTE
Geez Pat, those interior gigs & no gig on rust stained carpet sucks, but it sounds like it wasn't enough to get past the wheel/tire choice. Just added Fritz to my pix on Red 914s, along with my buddy's Red 71 1.7!

You do have the correct Porsche chrome wheels now I assume, and some XZX 165SR15s will fit it to a Tee!

Tom, the chrome wheels were never a Factory part. Dealer add-on. And yes, I will probably mount them again, though I have restored steelies. I just like the look & will take my lumps. In the pics that I mistakenly sent too many times the tires were Yoko A008R's. Fabulous auto-x tire of the period. If I could get them again, I would use them. Unfortunately, I mounted them on my 73T that I sold to Ferg. Won't accept XWX's. Too hard & poor performers today. XZX's maybe, but I'd really like some Pirelli CN36's (which are mounted on my steelies, but approaching 30 years of age. I'd also take some of those Dunlops, or maybe some Pirelli P6's. Tires are the least of my problem right now. Fuel system needs to be completely redone. Have almost all parts needed, but George will get a nice order for fuel & vac lines, as well as injector boots (not looking foward to that one).

Fritz WILL hit road this year. I'm determined, my wife is griping at me, and I miss driving the car.
Pat


Hmmm, I thought Porsche sold 15x5.5 Chrome Steel Wheels for the 911/912 line, so why wouldn't that be considered original for a 914 if you optioned it from the dealer?

Oooops, there we go again with that "Polish-Logic" of PCR (HP calculator users will know what I mean by P-L - it's bass-ackwards).

Pat - I'm pretty sure that Lucas in Ohio & Long Beach CA sells the CN36 in your size 165SR15 (check the Longstone link below), but IIRC they're tube type as well. Also, I think I misspoke before - they sell XZX 165SR15, but it shows up on the Longstone trie website, which Lucas is their USA affiliate or subsidiary & can order any tires from them via UK -
http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/search?sea...p;x=85&y=13

Sounds like you'll be on the road before me!

Because they (914) are 4 bolt, not 5 bolt. Brazilian made in both cases, but not official Factory add-ons for 914's. The 4 bolt wheels were made for VW cars and, as far as I know, were available as a factory option with VW of the era.
Pat
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pete000
post Apr 10 2011, 12:16 PM
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If you have ever seen Joe's Grey 930 Multiple Zone 8 and Parade champion car you will notice he has blacked out wheel wells. I have seen his car win the Zuffinhauzen sp? Award at Parade which is a near perfect score at Parade level, so I think the blacked out wheel houses might not be an issue....IMHO.
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smg914
post Apr 10 2011, 12:50 PM
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QUOTE (pete000 @ Apr 10 2011, 09:16 AM) *
If you have ever seen Joe's Grey 930 Multiple Zone 8 and Parade champion car you will notice he has blacked out wheel wells. I have seen his car win the Zuffinhauzen sp? Award at Parade which is a near perfect score at Parade level, so I think the blacked out wheel houses might not be an issue....IMHO.

AFAIK 914's didn't come from the factory with the wheel wells undercoated. It was a dealer thing. So if that's the case, it would seem to me that a Parade judge would gig the car for that much like they did on the interior in George's green 6.

Once again, no consistency at the Parade level which is why I no longer participate with any of my cars. Just too much aggravation for me.
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Pat Garvey
post Apr 10 2011, 06:43 PM
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QUOTE (smg914 @ Apr 10 2011, 01:50 PM) *
QUOTE
If you have ever seen Joe's Grey 930 Multiple Zone 8 and Parade champion car you will notice he has blacked out wheel wells. I have seen his car win the Zuffinhauzen sp? Award at Parade which is a near perfect score at Parade level, so I think the blacked out wheel houses might not be an issue....IMHO.

AFAIK 914's didn't come from the factory with the wheel wells undercoated. It was a dealer thing. So if that's the case, it would seem to me that a Parade judge would gig the car for that much like they did on the interior in George's green 6.

Once again, no consistency at the Parade level which is why I no longer participate with any of my cars. Just too much aggravation for me.


Hear, hear Steve! With you on that. Too many unknowlegeable judges the way it's set up now & rules are stupid! I'll be the first to say right here that my 72 did NOT come to the dealer with blacked out inner fender walls. It was done by the dealer, with assumed kickbacks from Ziebart. Since my 914 was going to be a daily driver in midwest winters (it only took two to halt that!), I was grateful at the time. I lament it now.
Pat
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Pat Garvey
post Apr 10 2011, 06:44 PM
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QUOTE (pete000 @ Apr 10 2011, 01:16 PM) *
If you have ever seen Joe's Grey 930 Multiple Zone 8 and Parade champion car you will notice he has blacked out wheel wells. I have seen his car win the Zuffinhauzen sp? Award at Parade which is a near perfect score at Parade level, so I think the blacked out wheel houses might not be an issue....IMHO.

But they are! Read above.
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pete000
post Apr 10 2011, 10:19 PM
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QUOTE
QUOTE
If you have ever seen Joe's Grey 930 Multiple Zone 8 and Parade champion car you will notice he has blacked out wheel wells. I have seen his car win the Zuffinhauzen sp? Award at Parade which is a near perfect score at Parade level, so I think the blacked out wheel houses might not be an issue....IMHO.

But they are! Read above.



I guess it is up to the judges. I can see the frustrations. He gets no deductions for black wheel houses and others do. My 914 has the black Zebart goo that I would guess most dealers applied back in the 70's. Luckily they only applied it in the wheel wells and not all over the whole underbody.

I had a 78 924 and that this was slathered in the goop in the doors and everywhere. It sucked to work on that tar car !

Speaking of Parade Judging. I got deductions for my faded old tail lamps at the Colorado Parade. I asked how so and the Judge said they were just old and look poor. I informed him they were brand new just out of the box one week prior to the show. The 964 Porsche's used a pinkish purple plastic on the tail lamps. He responded "Well they just look bad then." The Judge had no knowledge of the 964 series at all, jeeze! why was he selected to judge that class then, and no they did not remove the deductions.
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smg914
post Apr 10 2011, 11:18 PM
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QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
If you have ever seen Joe's Grey 930 Multiple Zone 8 and Parade champion car you will notice he has blacked out wheel wells. I have seen his car win the Zuffinhauzen sp? Award at Parade which is a near perfect score at Parade level, so I think the blacked out wheel houses might not be an issue....IMHO.

But they are! Read above.



I guess it is up to the judges. I can see the frustrations. He gets no deductions for black wheel houses and others do. My 914 has the black Zebart goo that I would guess most dealers applied back in the 70's. Luckily they only applied it in the wheel wells and not all over the whole underbody.

I had a 78 924 and that this was slathered in the goop in the doors and everywhere. It sucked to work on that tar car !

Speaking of Parade Judging. I got deductions for my faded old tail lamps at the Colorado Parade. I asked how so and the Judge said they were just old and look poor. I informed him they were brand new just out of the box one week prior to the show. The 964 Porsche's used a pinkish purple plastic on the tail lamps. He responded "Well they just look bad then." The Judge had no knowledge of the 964 series at all, jeeze! why was he selected to judge that class then, and no they did not remove the deductions.

Now that's frustration at it's best! Judges don't seem to realize, these type of situations are never forgotten by the entrant. I guess if you go into a Parade concours with absolutely no thought of winning, you'd never get frustrated. Unfortunately, every competition I enter whether it be tennis, racing, autocross, concours, or monopoly, I want to win. I've been this way since I was 2.
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