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> judging considerations, is dealer installed acceptable
Dr. 914
post Apr 5 2011, 10:55 AM
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We had some controversy a couple of years ago with the willow green 5606 mile 914-6, and lost over the color of the interior.
Although we had a letter from the dealer saying that they changed it to a factory black one before selling the car, the COA (certificate of authenticity) stated the original color of the interior (tan)
My contention was that since the dealer changed it and it was the exact factory correct interior but a different color, that we should not have been pecked for it as it was really beyond our control. What do you think? The car that won was a much lesser car in preparation
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Tom_T
post Apr 5 2011, 02:10 PM
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Although it's water under the bridge now George - recheck your COA & call PCNA's COA staff to read off the Kardex as to what specific interior code number shows on the records. #11 is black & #31 is "beige" (tan - see below), but PCNA's COA staff regularly misreads the various older codes for colors & options, etc. (e.g.: Pat Garvey's "Norwegian Equipment").

It took me 12+ months, 3 COA's & going to the Customer Service GM to get mine corrected from PCNA's COA staff incorrectly claiming that my recorded #31 was "black" & not "Beige" - even though there are many COAs out there with #11 as Black. I finally had to research the color codes from old factory brochures & other COAs & send it to that GM to get it corrected on the 3rd COA, thanx to Jeff Bowlsby's amassed 914 info. at his website.
It's at these links for those who don't know -
http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/
http://bowlsby.net/914/CanAm/ (for the 74 LEs)

As to your basic question, I know that interior swaps was a common practice by dealers, because when I talked to Rick Perkins of PCNA when he came out to verify that my 73 2L never got the HO nor BO Recalls done, and he said that they could do one with 2 914s side-by-side in 45 mins.!!!! I know that some look askance at dealers for doing such changes, adding optional equipment, changing wheels, etc. at the buyers request, but IMHO that is just GOOD CUSTOMER SERVICE - and NOT a disservice to the CW originality community, and should be treated accordingly as an original item.

So this then makes it a question of both how much to gig a Pcar on points & when "originality" starts - at the dealer's showroom floor, or rolling off the factory floor. If it's the latter, then 74 LE's would ALL be ineligible since they shipped the side stripes unattached in the cars due to the shipping, then mounted by the dealers! A step further, and ANY 914 with a radio would be ineligible or gigged for having one installed by the dealer! .... ditto for ANY 914 with dealer VPD or DPC AC installed - even though Porsche factory themselves made the deals via their US/NA distributor with VPD & DPC to produce AC for both 914s & 911s/912s/930s because they couldn't, as noted below, for the USA market where that feature is far more prevalent & often a deal killer for a new car buyer even in the 1970s - especially in the hot south & southwest!

Take it a step further, and ANY 914 with any personalization or performance accessories attached is gigged - even when a Porsche authorized part from the days when Porsche & other auto mfgrs. routinely didn't have capacity to produce the options & "farmed them out" to others under license to product them & then sell them at dealers worldwide &/or in certain markets, or regions (as did many other auto mfgrs. then). And until Toyota started "loading" their cars in the early 70's to penetrate the USA market, most auto mfgrs. made EVERYTHING an option at extra cost - including heat & rubber floor mats - let alone carpet! Porsche copied that Toyota strategy in 1972 to introduce the "new" 73 MY 914-2.0 ("914 S") as fully loaded, in order to build sales for that 914-6 "replacement." So in that "theory of originality," it makes a Porsche sanctioned & AMCO mfgrd. leather or wood burl shift know with the Porsche crest a "giggable offense" (btw AMCO was also under contract with MG, Triumph, Jag, Alfa, etc. to produce their respective crested shift knobs for sale at their dealerships), or a passenger side mirror from the factory & installed by the dealer a gig (IIRC every 914 at last year's Parade had p-side mirrors!), etc.

And then, what about the 911 RS or 73 914-2.0/"914 S", etc. which had fully loaded with additional options in the "standard fitment," but that PCNA refuses to include any details on their options "included" in the base package in their COAs (e.g.: the 73 914S fitment including the Appearance/Comfort & Performance/Sport Groups' options are not included on the COAs at all - even when the cars were so equipped from the factory for the USA market up to at least Jan. or Feb. 1973). And what about factory pushes for dealer upgrades, such as the M471 flares etc. options which helped get the FACTORY 914-6GT homologated - without which the factory could NOT have raced 914-6GTs at Le Mans! Or any other "factory option" sold & installed by the dealers, or the factory pushed "Porsche Personalization" program of dealer installed options to increase both dealer & FACTORY profits, including Mahle & Fuchs wheels painted in LE colors, LE side stripes for non-LE cars, etc.!!?? IIRC a dealer M471 flared 914-6 won in class last summer - ooops!

Furthermore, ANY replacement of maintenance parts then technically falls under that definition of originality, since they're replaced by the dealer, independent garage &/or owner, and at this point in time most original factory parts are NLA. So my 1980 Koni shocks are not OE, but sorely needed replaced by about 150k, and according to this "theory of originality" purveyed by PCA says that not only are Konis not original -even though they were available as both factory options & dealer upgrades, but the original style Boge shocks available today are not only "not original from the factory" - but are now owned by Sachs IIRC - so not really Boges. What about SS HEs, repro bumper tops & gaurds which are NLA, etc., etc., etc.!

Then the second half of that - how much to gig for a dealer changed interior (vs. say a later DAPO change), vs. a much lesser prepared Pcar (I don't know the specifics of the other 914) - it certainly doesn't seem like it should be enough of a points gig to drop a top car below a lesser one, and PCA claims it's only supposed to be enough to differentiate between 2 or more approximately equal cars, not to drop a top car by a significant margin below a lesser example - at least according to PCA's wording/talk. So did the CdE judges overstep their authority in the points gigged your 914-6, or was their a lesser difference in the 2 914s - who knows at this point - aside from whether or not it was apprpriate to gig for dealer vs. factory stuff.

As I understand it, neither major multi-marque antique and vintage car nor other marques' CdEs rules make such an arbitrary distinction between factory and dealer installed options and personalization - at least when it can be shown they were part of the mfgrs'. official programs of manufacturing, equipping, marketing & selling their vehicles. Let's face it, under that rule of originality, there would be virtually none of the 1900-1930's custom bodied cars aloowed at all - except in raw chassis form - including Rolls, Bentley, Dusenburg, etc., etc., etc.!

I assume that now that you've had Steve G. change out that interior for you, that you'll be making another run at CdE in Savannah, so perhaps it will be a moot point come Summer - other than how these seemingly blindly guided originality determinations with PCA goes.

BTW - for 72-74 MYs at least, on the official factory/distributor/dealer documents they called it "Beige" - not tan, caramel, cinnamon, etc., per below -


Attached Image


This is part of what I had to send to PCNA's COA staff, basically doing their job for them in knowing & researching their historic codes for models, colors, equipment, etc. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif)
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Dr. 914
post Apr 5 2011, 04:02 PM
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excellent insight Tom. I never thought of the ac and the stripes and the wheel switch at the dealer as well. Makes me think that we should have NEVER been gigged for the interior change! BUT like good little followers changed it back to the original color!!!!!!! When the car won the Benson and Hedges in England they did not fault the black interior!
I had understood that the kardex reading was screwed up as they reassigned option codes but some of the coas that I have seen are really laughable. One would think that they at Porsche would assign a person with some real knowledge to check these things before they were mailed to customers who in some cases pay 100 bucks for the framed version!
By the way, Tom, do you know what "california equipment" is on a 71 914 1.7??



QUOTE (Tom_T @ Apr 5 2011, 03:10 PM) *
Although it's water under the bridge now George - recheck your COA & call PCNA's COA staff to read off the Kardex as to what specific interior code number shows on the records. #11 is black & #31 is "beige" (tan - see below), but PCNA's COA staff regularly misreads the various older codes for colors & options, etc. (e.g.: Pat Garvey's "Norwegian Equipment").

It took me 12+ months, 3 COA's & going to the Customer Service GM to get mine corrected from PCNA's COA staff incorrectly claiming that my recorded #31 was "black" & not "Beige" - even though there are many COAs out there with #11 as Black. I finally had to research the color codes from old factory brochures & other COAs & send it to that GM to get it corrected on the 3rd COA, thanx to Jeff Bowlsby's amassed 914 info. at his website.
It's at these links for those who don't know -
http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/
http://bowlsby.net/914/CanAm/ (for the 74 LEs)

As to your basic question, I know that interior swaps was a common practice by dealers, because when I talked to Rick Perkins of PCNA when he came out to verify that my 73 2L never got the HO nor BO Recalls done, and he said that they could do one with 2 914s side-by-side in 45 mins.!!!! I know that some look askance at dealers for doing such changes, adding optional equipment, changing wheels, etc. at the buyers request, but IMHO that is just GOOD CUSTOMER SERVICE - and NOT a disservice to the CW originality community, and should be treated accordingly as an original item.

So this then makes it a question of both how much to gig a Pcar on points & when "originality" starts - at the dealer's showroom floor, or rolling off the factory floor. If it's the latter, then 74 LE's would ALL be ineligible since they shipped the side stripes unattached in the cars due to the shipping, then mounted by the dealers! A step further, and ANY 914 with a radio would be ineligible or gigged for having one installed by the dealer! .... ditto for ANY 914 with dealer VPD or DPC AC installed - even though Porsche factory themselves made the deals via their US/NA distributor with VPD & DPC to produce AC for both 914s & 911s/912s/930s because they couldn't, as noted below, for the USA market where that feature is far more prevalent & often a deal killer for a new car buyer even in the 1970s - especially in the hot south & southwest!

Take it a step further, and ANY 914 with any personalization or performance accessories attached is gigged - even when a Porsche authorized part from the days when Porsche & other auto mfgrs. routinely didn't have capacity to produce the options & "farmed them out" to others under license to product them & then sell them at dealers worldwide &/or in certain markets, or regions (as did many other auto mfgrs. then). And until Toyota started "loading" their cars in the early 70's to penetrate the USA market, most auto mfgrs. made EVERYTHING an option at extra cost - including heat & rubber floor mats - let alone carpet! Porsche copied that Toyota strategy in 1972 to introduce the "new" 73 MY 914-2.0 ("914 S") as fully loaded, in order to build sales for that 914-6 "replacement." So in that "theory of originality," it makes a Porsche sanctioned & AMCO mfgrd. leather or wood burl shift know with the Porsche crest a "giggable offense" (btw AMCO was also under contract with MG, Triumph, Jag, Alfa, etc. to produce their respective crested shift knobs for sale at their dealerships), or a passenger side mirror from the factory & installed by the dealer a gig (IIRC every 914 at last year's Parade had p-side mirrors!), etc.

And then, what about the 911 RS or 73 914-2.0/"914 S", etc. which had fully loaded with additional options in the "standard fitment," but that PCNA refuses to include any details on their options "included" in the base package in their COAs (e.g.: the 73 914S fitment including the Appearance/Comfort & Performance/Sport Groups' options are not included on the COAs at all - even when the cars were so equipped from the factory for the USA market up to at least Jan. or Feb. 1973). And what about factory pushes for dealer upgrades, such as the M471 flares etc. options which helped get the FACTORY 914-6GT homologated - without which the factory could NOT have raced 914-6GTs at Le Mans! Or any other "factory option" sold & installed by the dealers, or the factory pushed "Porsche Personalization" program of dealer installed options to increase both dealer & FACTORY profits, including Mahle & Fuchs wheels painted in LE colors, LE side stripes for non-LE cars, etc.!!?? IIRC a dealer M471 flared 914-6 won in class last summer - ooops!

Furthermore, ANY replacement of maintenance parts then technically falls under that definition of originality, since they're replaced by the dealer, independent garage &/or owner, and at this point in time most original factory parts are NLA. So my 1980 Koni shocks are not OE, but sorely needed replaced by about 150k, and according to this "theory of originality" purveyed by PCA says that not only are Konis not original -even though they were available as both factory options & dealer upgrades, but the original style Boge shocks available today are not only "not original from the factory" - but are now owned by Sachs IIRC - so not really Boges. What about SS HEs, repro bumper tops & gaurds which are NLA, etc., etc., etc.!

Then the second half of that - how much to gig for a dealer changed interior (vs. say a later DAPO change), vs. a much lesser prepared Pcar (I don't know the specifics of the other 914) - it certainly doesn't seem like it should be enough of a points gig to drop a top car below a lesser one, and PCA claims it's only supposed to be enough to differentiate between 2 or more approximately equal cars, not to drop a top car by a significant margin below a lesser example - at least according to PCA's wording/talk. So did the CdE judges overstep their authority in the points gigged your 914-6, or was their a lesser difference in the 2 914s - who knows at this point - aside from whether or not it was apprpriate to gig for dealer vs. factory stuff.

As I understand it, neither major multi-marque antique and vintage car nor other marques' CdEs rules make such an arbitrary distinction between factory and dealer installed options and personalization - at least when it can be shown they were part of the mfgrs'. official programs of manufacturing, equipping, marketing & selling their vehicles. Let's face it, under that rule of originality, there would be virtually none of the 1900-1930's custom bodied cars aloowed at all - except in raw chassis form - including Rolls, Bentley, Dusenburg, etc., etc., etc.!

I assume that now that you've had Steve G. change out that interior for you, that you'll be making another run at CdE in Savannah, so perhaps it will be a moot point come Summer - other than how these seemingly blindly guided originality determinations with PCA goes.

BTW - for 72-74 MYs at least, on the official factory/distributor/dealer documents they called it "Beige" - not tan, caramel, cinnamon, etc., per below -


Attached Image


This is part of what I had to send to PCNA's COA staff, basically doing their job for them in knowing & researching their historic codes for models, colors, equipment, etc. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif)

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Pat Garvey
post Apr 5 2011, 06:04 PM
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These are very interesting questions and observations.

When I bought my 72 the 2.0's were just coming in. The dealer offerred me the Fuchs wheels from one of them for 300 bucks, because my app grp car had 4 1/2 inch steel wheels instead of the correct 5 1/2 inch. Was I playing into their plan? Told them no, since I couldn't afford another penny, and that I wanted the 5 1/2 inchers that I was paying for. Guess there weren't any around at the time, so they offered me a Bursch exhaust as replacement for the wheels. Said no again & that I would wait for the proper wheels & tires, which they supplied within a week. Dealers were scavengers then (even more than today) & would try anything to make an extra buck. And they would try to give you any option that they could "create" from another car on the lot, rather than having to go through the ordering process again.

Speed ahead 16 years. Bought my second Audi (90) and ordered it with the factory sportseats. When we took delivery, we decided we were too wide for the sport seats to be comfortable on extended trips. No problem. The dealer ripped out the standard seats (same color) from another Audi, reduced the price, and sent us home happy. And, they had a set of sport seats to up option another Audi!

With regards to COA's....I think that, with the record of Porsche for screwing these up they should be thrown out of consideration for cars of the 70's. The error percentage is too high for them to be held as a judging standard for these cars.
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Tom_T
post Apr 5 2011, 06:05 PM
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QUOTE
#1 - I had understood that the kardex reading was screwed up as they reassigned option codes but some of the coas that I have seen are really laughable. One would think that they at Porsche would assign a person with some real knowledge to check these things before they were mailed to customers who in some cases pay 100 bucks for the framed version!


#2 - By the way, Tom, do you know what "california equipment" is on a 71 914 1.7??



QUOTE



#2 - Yes, ""California Equipment is the CA required smog control equipment for that particular model year, plus the extra $15 fee on the window sticker for the factory test & certification that the car met the applicable smog standards in place at that time. In some cases the 914s were built per 50 state standards (i.e.: CA smog + the other 49 states' lesser standards, e.g.: the GA 2.0 H4 & I think the GC too), so they just had to do the test/certification to allow the car to be sold in CA.

PS - it's also a great way to prove that a particular 914 was in fact originally a CA car, since so many feel that's a holy grail on these rust prone queens!


#1 - One would certainly think so. When I challenged it & asked the gal to go to her supervisor, the she sent me a curt message & the 2nd still incorrect one & refunded my visa, because I said that they cannot call a COA the ultimate in determining originality & then do a poor job on them (highly unprofessional IMHO & certainly does not make me want to buy a new Pcar with that BS "customer care[lessness]"). Then I contacted the GM/VP for Customer Care & offered to pay, but he said not to worry & eventually got it correct - except for the lack of clarity that the Appearance & Performance Group options were in fact included on my/all early 73 MY 2Ls originally marketed as the 914S" by PC-America or whatever they called themselves then. So my COA was "free" after I spent over 100 hours researching their info, taking pix of my 914 & going back & forth by phone & email.

Overall, apparently Porsche has changed the codes which they use for colors, materials, options, etc. from model to model, years to years, etc. But again one would think that they would have COA staff trained in how to look the appropriate material up, and not just do whatever was off the top of the head or easily available. I never did get a straight answer if they outsourced those tasks to others outside of PCNA, or if all COAs are done completely in house.

PCNA's/Porsche's records are also really bad, as they had my 73 914-2.0 being sold in Sept. 73 in Connecticut, when it was in fact built in Aug. 72, first sold in CA 11/9/72 per my DMV reg. cards; but they changed the records after I sent them pix of the reg cards - but not after arguing that their records were always right! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)


Side note for all - that exercise did confirm that PCNA will still cover HO Recall & any others which they can document were never done on a car, even today. Unfortunately the PO had changed to Riviera wheels before I bought it in Dec. 75, so I couldn't "collect" on the BO Recall for the wrong non-hub-centric -00 p/n Fuchs 2L wheels, but I can take in my 2L at any time for the HO Recall on the battery cover & fuel lines, as can any members here or your customers - once they've verified that it wasn't done on their records, and line up a service number for the dealer to use.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif)
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