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> concours judging, factory vs aftermarket
Tom_T
post Apr 11 2011, 12:17 AM
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After our rousing discussion here, I started looking into some of the possible 914 options and found a few things. Just to clarify a few glaring misconceptions on what options were supposedly "never from the factory" or "always done by the dealers" -

Undercoating -
M640 - PVC undercoating
> (BTW - my 73 2L was a CA car sold 11/9/72 & fully undercoated @ underpan & wheel wells by the dealer, even in Sunny SoCal!)

Passenger Side Mirror (Convex) -
M528 - Convex mirror passenger side

Chrome Plated Steel Wheels (not sure if 4 or 5 Lug) -
M976 - Chrome plated steel wheels, 5.5Jx15 with 165HR15 whitewall tires
> (This looks like 914-6's 5 lug, as used on 911s/912s?)

H4 & H3 Halogen Headlights & Driving/Fog Lights -
(Although it is known that the US-DOT hadn't approved Halogen yet in 69-76) -
M551 - Halogen headlights (H4 headlights as in Comfort [Sport?] Equipment)
M433 - Halogen H3 driving lights
M659 - Halogen fog and driving lights

2+1 Seating & Center Seatbelt -
M166 - Seat belt for M570 (not supplied in Comfort Equipment)
M186 - Seat belt for M570 (not for US vehicles)
M570 - Center seat cushion (as in Comfort Equipment)

Radios & Antennas/Speakers in "Radio Ready" options -
M490 - Electric antenna
M440 - Antenna on left with speakers andů.? (ostensibly for the dealer to provide the radio of the buyer's choice)
> VW still does this, as we bought our 88 Westy new & that's how it came "radio ready" as the option - no radio, tbd by buyer from dealer or aftermarket source.
M? - Loudspeakers, speaker covers, mechanical antenna on left, for all radios
> Apparently this became std. eqpt. 75 & 76 MYs in Europe.

M095 - Blaupunkt radio - Wolfsburg (MW-LW)
M096 - Blaupunkt radio - Braunshweig
M097 - Blaupunkt radio - Emden with electric antenna (MW-LW-UW)
M196 - Radio Hannover (stereo - with automatic search)
M450 - Blaupunkt radio - Boston
M452 - Blaupunkt radio - Frankfurt
M453 - Blaupunkt radio - Frankfurt, USA market
M454 - Blaupunkt radio - Koln
M455 - Blaupunkt radio - New York
M459 - Becker radio - Grand Prix
M460 - Becker radio - Grand Prix with left side antenna andů.
M587 - [Blaupunkt?] Hannover radio (MW-LW-UW) with automatic antenna
> That's an awful lot of M-options" for radios on a car that supposedly never left the factory with a radio at all, let alone the antenna & speakers, and it doesn't includes the Motorola, VPC & other radio mfgrs. who were contracted to provide them - even down to the plastic dash cover plate matching the dash basketweave leatherette fabric facing!

Source: http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/OpEq.htm

So I say, why should it matter to PCA Judges whether a certain option was added at the dealership to further "complete the car's fitment" for the owner, with an available option(s) from the factory or outside supplier franchised/authorized by Porsche?

IMHO it should not! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)
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Pat Garvey
post Apr 11 2011, 06:51 PM
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Because it was not Factory. Plain and simple.

It is my belief that a fully concours/original 914 should be shown as offloaded at the dealership (my opinion here), and before the dealers had thier way with it!

If you look at vintage & slassic marques from other manufacturers and look closely, the winners are the cars that have been restored/refurbished/preserved in that condition. Fortunately for those owners, they weren't plagued by dealer installed goo & goo-gaas because the factory had control of the dealers.

One of the finest cars I competed against in a multi-marque even was a '57 T-Bird. Restored to the point of offloading from the carrier, with shimms to tune the chassis taped to the bottom rails. THAT was a perfect concours resto! Whipped the snot out of me! And correctly so.
Pat
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pete000
post Apr 12 2011, 12:07 AM
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Here is an example of my CA delivered 914 with a nice spatter of good old dealer applied Zibart tar !

Cleans off pretty easily with "Goof Off" Grafitti remover.


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Tom_T
post Apr 12 2011, 04:24 PM
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QUOTE (Pat Garvey @ Apr 11 2011, 03:51 PM) *
Because it was not Factory. Plain and simple.

It is my belief that a fully concours/original 914 should be shown as offloaded at the dealership (my opinion here), and before the dealers had thier way with it!

If you look at vintage & slassic marques from other manufacturers and look closely, the winners are the cars that have been restored/refurbished/preserved in that condition. Fortunately for those owners, they weren't plagued by dealer installed goo & goo-gaas because the factory had control of the dealers.

One of the finest cars I competed against in a multi-marque even was a '57 T-Bird. Restored to the point of offloading from the carrier, with shimms to tune the chassis taped to the bottom rails. THAT was a perfect concours resto! Whipped the snot out of me! And correctly so.
Pat



We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one Pat, cuz MHO a classic or vintage car should reflect how they were actually purchased and used - not how they were shipped. Otherwise the only "correct" Porsche would have to include that crap that they sprayed over them for oceanic shipping, which was later removed at the dealership as part of "Dealer Prep" charged on every car. Likewise, using that criteria all of the 1900-1930s +/- classic cars produced as a chassis then shipped to a custom coach builder for a body (e.g.: Dusenburg, Packards, Bentleys, etc.) could only be shown as a "raw chassis" - which makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.

Obviously that is not the rules for multi-marque shows, nor is the strictest interpretation which plagued you vs. the T-Bird - although clearly some judges do run amok & use their own "interpretations" of the rules, which is why they provide for challenges.

IMHO there is a difference between "dealer goo" & legitimate factory supplied &/or authorized options & accessories specifically intended to be added at customer request to their cars - of any marque.

An example which I think goes too far is the dealer provided wood dash cover, turned aluminum threshold plates, hood badge, & Western wheels which were on my buddy's 71 Bahia Red 914/ as a result of a prior buyer ordering it that way then canceling, and my buddy got a good price as is as a result (see pic below). Jerry isn't a CW guy, but rather just a perfectionist about keeping his cars nice, and that's the factory red paint, carpet & upholstery - which color paint is very hard to keep from oxidizing here in the strong sun of SoCal.

Jerry's 71 914 1.7 - original & only owner - all as it came from the dealer with exceptions noted above and: rechromed F bumper with license plate holes filled, rocker panels replaced with factory parts (due to damage when used as DD & ski trips), tires replaced over the years & other regular maintenance items, original warranty dealer rebuilt motor due to dropped valve, dealer supplied radio & CD player added into glovebox & upgraded speakers (his sons B-day present a couple of years back) - AFAIK.


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In all fairness too, IMHO this would lose out to Pat's more original 72 1.7 & Steve's 73 2L Sahara though, assuming equal level of prep on all 3 cars.

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Tom_T
post Apr 12 2011, 04:35 PM
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QUOTE (pete000 @ Apr 11 2011, 09:07 PM) *
Here is an example of my CA delivered 914 with a nice spatter of good old dealer applied Zibart tar !

Cleans off pretty easily with "Goof Off" Grafitti remover.



Same on my 73 2L too -

Attached Image


But the factory did also supply the M640 undercoating as a factory option.

I think that due to the distance from Germany to the USA, not knowing which options a particular buyer will want, and the need to outsource a large number of options back then (same for all auto mfgrs. in pre-80's time) - that Porsche & the other auto mfgrs. rightly decided to ship mostly basic cars with a basic set of options with a few Loaded cars, then let the dealers fulfill each buyer's desires on the spot - rather than having to wait MONTHS to special order a car with the exact set of options from the factory.

This clearly applied to BOTH 914s & 911s/912s of the 60's & 70's.
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Pat Garvey
post Apr 12 2011, 10:01 PM
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QUOTE (Tom_T @ Apr 12 2011, 05:24 PM) *
QUOTE
Because it was not Factory. Plain and simple.

It is my belief that a fully concours/original 914 should be shown as offloaded at the dealership (my opinion here), and before the dealers had thier way with it!

If you look at vintage & slassic marques from other manufacturers and look closely, the winners are the cars that have been restored/refurbished/preserved in that condition. Fortunately for those owners, they weren't plagued by dealer installed goo & goo-gaas because the factory had control of the dealers.

One of the finest cars I competed against in a multi-marque even was a '57 T-Bird. Restored to the point of offloading from the carrier, with shimms to tune the chassis taped to the bottom rails. THAT was a perfect concours resto! Whipped the snot out of me! And correctly so.
Pat



We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one Pat, cuz MHO a classic or vintage car should reflect how they were actually purchased and used - not how they were shipped. Otherwise the only "correct" Porsche would have to include that crap that they sprayed over them for oceanic shipping, which was later removed at the dealership as part of "Dealer Prep" charged on every car. Likewise, using that criteria all of the 1900-1930s +/- classic cars produced as a chassis then shipped to a custom coach builder for a body (e.g.: Dusenburg, Packards, Bentleys, etc.) could only be shown as a "raw chassis" - which makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.

Obviously that is not the rules for multi-marque shows, nor is the strictest interpretation which plagued you vs. the T-Bird - although clearly some judges do run amok & use their own "interpretations" of the rules, which is why they provide for challenges.

IMHO there is a difference between "dealer goo" & legitimate factory supplied &/or authorized options & accessories specifically intended to be added at customer request to their cars - of any marque.

An example which I think goes too far is the dealer provided wood dash cover, turned aluminum threshold plates, hood badge, & Western wheels which were on my buddy's 71 Bahia Red 914/ as a result of a prior buyer ordering it that way then canceling, and my buddy got a good price as is as a result (see pic below). Jerry isn't a CW guy, but rather just a perfectionist about keeping his cars nice, and that's the factory red paint, carpet & upholstery - which color paint is very hard to keep from oxidizing here in the strong sun of SoCal.

Jerry's 71 914 1.7 - original & only owner - all as it came from the dealer with exceptions noted above and: rechromed F bumper with license plate holes filled, rocker panels replaced with factory parts (due to damage when used as DD & ski trips), tires replaced over the years & other regular maintenance items, original warranty dealer rebuilt motor due to dropped valve, dealer supplied radio & CD player added into glovebox & upgraded speakers (his sons B-day present a couple of years back) - AFAIK.


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In all fairness too, IMHO this would lose out to Pat's more original 72 1.7 & Steve's 73 2L Sahara though, assuming equal level of prep on all 3 cars.

Tom,

We (concors weenies) all search for the level we wish to win at. I've always chosen the higher road, where originality per the Factory is the target. Others may have fifferent targets. Personally, I think the current PCR's are downright stupid - too many classes. But I'll give them this - they are straightforward, and you can choose to participate in several venues. Of course, me being me, I disagree with anything that isn't pure concours. I don't care if your 914 is well preserved or fully factory restored - we should stand together as a mass. I think the judging should be done by the best 914 experts out there (911's/912's,etc for the other classes). I think questions should be asked to the owner by the judges. I think that the spare & all tools should be displayed in front of the car. I think the underside judges should put hands on the car, looking for dirt, oil, grease, dead rats, etc. I think PCA should go back to thier roots for Parade concours judging - give them a lab coat & white gloves & let them REALLY judge the car for cleanliness. Let the topside guys ask questions about those dubious chrome wheels, that wood facing on the dash, that 8 track player, etc. Know that you'll be gigged for an area & make up for it in another.

What used to be simple rules to play the concours game have changed, and not for the better.

Know the rules & play them.

Sidebar: I did it for many years but it has become too difficult to interpret the rules (PCA) these days. I don't like them, and have tried 5 times to have them changed, or even to be a voice, and have been turned down.

Hell, you don't even have locals involved putting on a Parade concours now - it's corporate & the locals are shut out. National teams are in control. The locals are only there to clean up!

When I was Concours Chairman for the '93 Parade I spent 10 months of torture trying to make a concours in the heat & humidity of late summer weather in Cincinnati. I had to rent semi-indoor space for prep, rent a convention center, rent carpet, provide vendors, etc. But, it all paid off when the concours day arrived! These days, the "promoter" just moves in & moves off to another venue. The locals, who've worked very hard for 24 months, are just pawns. They get no glory.

But, at the same time, if you understand the rules and work them to your advantage you can still place well.

Now, multi-marque events are a hoot. With the exception of half a dozen really serious multi's they are outrageous fun. When a slick 914 is invited, it usually does well. Judges are picked from local clubs. The Jag guys know Jags, the Healey guys know them, the prancing horse guys the same. But when a really nice 914 is mixed in, or a 356, the judges scramble together. "How are we going to judge these cars" "There are German cars mixed in here" "Yes, but they were invited". So, since Joe knows nothing about Ferrari's, and Bob knows nothing about Healeys.......they decide to judge on preparation. Happens frequently in the multi-marque venue.
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Tom_T
post Apr 13 2011, 01:13 AM
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I doubt Jerry will ever do a CdE, although his "Mr. Perfect" nickname fits him to a "Tee"!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol.gif)

He's his own person, and actually wanted to switch the wood dash face for a turned aluminum aftermarket type that used to be available out there, as well as adding some more footwell floor protection plates of the same.

All of his other cars over the years he has de-badged for some odd reason (he says he likes the clean look on the back face) - including a sweet black Z28, BMW 633i, & current Infinity G35 or G37 - how the heck do I know, he took the badge off! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol.gif)
He did say he's glad he didn't de-badge his 914, and a purist can take his 71 914/4 back to original if desired - if he ever sells it.

As for what you're saying above - I really don't disagree with 99% of it!

But rather - in one small area I feel that the vintage AM/FM/8-Track & antenna/speakers package that was installed with my 73 2L (using your example) - or any other Pcar, is a perfectly acceptable CdE element which should NOT be gigged, nor should any other factory available options &/or Porsche authorized 3rd party option/accessory is included on the vehicle in Full CdE - if it was available in that period of production - preferably if it can be shown to be installed on the specific car then too.

What you're saying about how locals are treated by the national crew & promoters/vendors really sucks!

As for me - I've never done CdE, AX, DE nor any of the other PCA fun-n-games & it's all new to me, so I'll probably give it a try once or a few, but eventually I'll just want to enjoy driving my 914 again for the halibut - & put the Q-tips aside in the interest of using my 914 for what she was designed. Back in the 70's & 80's she was my DD & only car, and I was far too busy with work, getting my Architect & Real Estate Broker licenses, MBA & of course playing some serious Rugby - to have any spare time for PCA. It will be nice to get her into the as new" condition which I never had, since much of the 73 2L upgrades had been removed by the time I got it in Dec. 75 for some strange reasons (L80E paint color changed, Fuchs, Center Console/Gauges & Driving/Foglights/Switch all removed), and she was 3 years well used with 45k miles by then.

Unfortunately at my current rate with all the distractions, I may be into my 60's before the resto/repair is done & it's roadworthy again! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pinch.gif)

I think it should all be about the camraderie, and hope that friends can differ on certain things, without losing friendships!

Cheers Bud! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
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Pat Garvey
post Apr 13 2011, 05:45 PM
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QUOTE (Tom_T @ Apr 13 2011, 02:13 AM) *
I doubt Jerry will ever do a CdE, although his "Mr. Perfect" nickname fits him to a "Tee"!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol.gif)

He's his own person, and actually wanted to switch the wood dash face for a turned aluminum aftermarket type that used to be available out there, as well as adding some more footwell floor protection plates of the same.

All of his other cars over the years he has de-badged for some odd reason (he says he likes the clean look on the back face) - including a sweet black Z28, BMW 633i, & current Infinity G35 or G37 - how the heck do I know, he took the badge off! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol.gif)
He did say he's glad he didn't de-badge his 914, and a purist can take his 71 914/4 back to original if desired - if he ever sells it.

As for what you're saying above - I really don't disagree with 99% of it!

But rather - in one small area I feel that the vintage AM/FM/8-Track & antenna/speakers package that was installed with my 73 2L (using your example) - or any other Pcar, is a perfectly acceptable CdE element which should NOT be gigged, nor should any other factory available options &/or Porsche authorized 3rd party option/accessory is included on the vehicle in Full CdE - if it was available in that period of production - preferably if it can be shown to be installed on the specific car then too.

What you're saying about how locals are treated by the national crew & promoters/vendors really sucks!

As for me - I've never done CdE, AX, DE nor any of the other PCA fun-n-games & it's all new to me, so I'll probably give it a try once or a few, but eventually I'll just want to enjoy driving my 914 again for the halibut - & put the Q-tips aside in the interest of using my 914 for what she was designed. Back in the 70's & 80's she was my DD & only car, and I was far too busy with work, getting my Architect & Real Estate Broker licenses, MBA & of course playing some serious Rugby - to have any spare time for PCA. It will be nice to get her into the as new" condition which I never had, since much of the 73 2L upgrades had been removed by the time I got it in Dec. 75 for some strange reasons (L80E paint color changed, Fuchs, Center Console/Gauges & Driving/Foglights/Switch all removed), and she was 3 years well used with 45k miles by then.

Unfortunately at my current rate with all the distractions, I may be into my 60's before the resto/repair is done & it's roadworthy again! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pinch.gif)

I think it should all be about the camraderie, and hope that friends can differ on certain things, without losing friendships!

Cheers Bud! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

I agree with you on the 8 track. Other than really whacko systems, I've never seen anyone giged for "period" system, so long as the door panels weren't holed and the original speaker enclosures were used.
Pat
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Tom_T
post Apr 13 2011, 06:44 PM
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QUOTE
I agree with you on the 8 track. Other than really whacko systems, I've never seen anyone giged for "period" system, so long as the door panels weren't holed and the original speaker enclosures were used.
Pat


Oh Geeez, don't get me started on that one! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blowup.gif)

Even on DD 914s the holed door panels drive me over the edge! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

It's like these folks cannot figure out what "those little boxes in the footwells" were for in the first place, and then some actually ask on here & world!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pinch.gif)

Then they go cut the holes anyway so they can add the 8000 whut Audio that you can't really hear over the motor & road noise with the top anyway, but the neighborhood hears it better than in th car! Maybe without the bone cruncher / kidney jiggler sound system, they could actually HEAR how the 914 is performing, know when to shift by ear, when someting is amiss, etc.!!!!
Id's! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spank.gif)
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oakpark
post Dec 30 2011, 01:11 AM
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Interesting series. I've only competed on the local level in Chicago. No originality, just how well kept is the car. You can leave your cell phone in the car if you want it judged. I've never felt shorted by our local judging.

I've also judged on the region level and its tough when you get a mixed class of cars to judge. I rely on the age and mileage bonus points to make the difference and just judge cleanliness and condition.
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